There were a number of posts earlier about rumors regarding USC Sociology's junior immigration search. I wanted to let you all know that the position has been filled, and the department successfully hired its candidate of first choice.
a question for the RWJ postdocs gurus.... for the next year's market, is there any etiquette to applying for both the Health and Society and Scholars in Health Policy Programs? Is it done, do people apply to both to maximize their chances? Are there any disadvantages to that? Any other pointers for those of us who are already preparing for the next round??
I know this really belongs onn a different page, but it seems like no one's reading the new positions page anymore, so I thought I'd put it here (with apologies for taking up a bit of space). I just thought this might be great for someone who's still looking... I found it on publicservicecareers.org
Assistant Professor, Community and Regional Development and Director, Center for the Study of Regional Change, University of California, Davis
The position is 50% as Director of the Center, and 50% tenure track faculty member (hired at the Assistant Professor level) in the Community Studies and Development Program.
Applications: Candidates should begin the application process by registering online at https://secure.caes.ucdavis.edu/Recruitment/. Inquiries should be directed to the chair of the recruitment committee: Chris Benner, Associate Professor, Community Studies and Development (530) 754-8799, ccbenner@ucdavis.edu
University of Oregon Position has officially been filled. Nearly 250 applied, and overall candidate quality was high, making search exceptionally competitive. Anyone's back hurt yet from patting ourselves on the back?
Transylvania University position has been offered and accepted. Rumor has it that Dr. Jekyll was highly sought after, and accepted it after getting some strange concessions. . . . .
(Sorry if you are the one that accepted the position, I have been waiting to post it if I didn't get it!)
University of Hawaii Women's Studies search was cancelled for this year, but has been given permission to advertise for next year. Anyone hear anything on the Sociology position at U of H?
Anyone else receive a rude rejection letter from Northern Arizona? Mine quoted the job posting and suggested that I wasn't qualified for the position -- I'm an Assitant Professor at a highly regarded and highly ranked program, teaching, researching and publishing in the field NAU posted and my PhD is from a highly ranked (top 10) program. I don't mind being rejected, but not qualified? So much for the thought of moving to a slower-paced part of the country that I thought would be more civil...
Did the ad refer to a specialty you don't have or a class you can't teach? Sounds to me like a place that's finally gotten fed up with reading applications from people who don't fit the bill...?
Nope. As I wrote, I'm "in the field" advertised. I teach and publish on globalization. It's one thing not to be interested in an applicant...but to be so rude is weird.
I think it's not all that rare that a position will go unfilled for several years running. In multi-departmental searches, like the Soc/Media Studies position at Pomona, it seems particularly likely, since it can be even more difficult for people from different discliplines to agree on criteria in a search than it can on a regular single-dept. search committee.
Of course, there can be other issues. A school that's got a good reputation and can make an attractive offer might only interview top candidates, who might be equally appealling to other places that can make even better offers. Don't know what happened at Pomona, but it's not hard to imagine them losing out to UCLA, for example. By the time the desired candidate rejects the department, it might be too late to hire someone else. It's not that hard to imagine something like this happening for a couple of years in a row.
Any info on what is happening at Mississippi State? A listing for a tenure track position went up this morning on the Chronicle of Higher Ed site. Surfing over to the school's HR page this seems to be for a specialization in demography, essentially the same as a position advertised last summer. Judging by the wiki, it looks like they already interviewed candidates for such a position but have not made a hire. Anyone have more info?
There's a new job posted in the ASA Job Bank for Akita International University in Japan. If you're tempted, you might want to check out a discussion on the Chronicle forum before putting too much effort into an application: http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,28632.0.html
Anybody know what happened at UNC-Wilmington? I never heard what occurred after the posting about the position being declined back in February. Did they hire someone (for the open position)?
Has anyone gotten an offer from anywhere this week? I'm on post-interview pins and needles and thought I'd throw the question out there and see if it helped.
IUP - a "young and promising scholar"?? A likely story - and anyway, if true, then surely a temporary story. I wonder how many people there remember the name "Satoshi".
Here is the list of scholars chosen for the RWJ Health Policy Scholars in Sociology. Now, who was saying that they don't choose mostly people from IVY or top schools? My point was proven- thank you very much!
Rene Almeling (Scholars Program at the University of California, Berkeley/San Francisco) 2008 PhD, UCLA
Colin Jerolmack (Scholars Program at Harvard University) 2008 PhD, CUNY
Helen Marrow (Scholars Program at the University of California, Berkeley/San Francisco) Lecturer, Harvard University
Fabio Rojas (Scholars Program at the University of Michigan) Assistant Professor, Indiana University (on leave)
Christine Percheski (Scholars Program at Harvard University) 2008 PhD, Princeton University
If any of you notice a job ad for a social psych position at UC Davis, don't get too excited: it's actually filled by someone without citizenship so for some weird reason they have to "open" the search every two years. don't waste energy/emotion on it.
mean in it's consequences. flat out unethical in practice. speaking as someone who has experience investing considerable time and energy in applying and interviewing for a position for which i was only fodder perform a bureaucratic process, this practice not only pisses me off to no end, it should be illegal.
Re: Queens College. Are you guys talking about the asst level demography position? At PAA I talked to the person who got that job and it seemed like the process was a bit more together than you all are implying.
The UC Davis comment is obviously false. Any non-US citizen offered a TT Job will not have any immigration problems. I've known plenty of people who've come to America on job offers and the green card comes without a problem. One of the many, many benefits of having a high level of education and an university job offer is that the immigration process becomes easy (and inexpensive, as most universities cover the costs as part of the job offer). Moreover, "opening" a search every year or two would make it even more difficult to justify that the "non-citizen" is the best candidate for the job since tons of equaly qualified Americans would apply.
So, I'd disregard the post as a bogus story. Maybe someone is trying to narrow down the competition.
If you don't like the advertisement every two years, go and pressure your government to change immigration laws. Yes, the law does require that companies that hire internationals advertise the position, because they need to give preference to Americans if they're equally qualified. If the U.S. were a small and insignificant country, I would agree with this policy. But given that the U.S. is the world's hegemonic power in academia and that people in other countries often accept theories developed here without questioning, opening space for us who happen to have been born in the periphery doesn't sound like such a bad idea. So this is a way for universities to circumvent a law that is already extremely biased and unfair, biased against people who already come here with a disadvantage of being born in the "wrong" place. And no, getting a green card is not automatic, first you need to get an H1-B, and then you apply for a green card, and usually it's a long and complicated process.
And does it justify accepting international students as half of an incoming graduate cohort? There are reasons these students have higher GRE scores, but those scores should not automatically grant international students a pre-eminent place above US students, particularly in a state-funded university. As much as I agree with the US's hegemonic power, its a bit diconcerting to see that US students are being replaced with international students in incoming graduate cohorts.
1) The basic degree abroad tends to be much more focused and oriented towards sociology than the American major, that is why -and not GRE scores- international students are finding their way more often into American Ph Ds
2) about UC Davis, usually when someone can not go into a H1-B visa (the one that leads to the green card) they go for a special kind of visa called O-1. Having that visa means the person can not be "certified" by the Labor department and the search has to be repeated -since the foreign person who got the job "instead of the US citizen" won't be on its way to permanent residency. Since the position is actually filled, departments which have hired people with that kind of visa limitations, have to repeat the search to please the Labor Department, even if the search will end up being cancelled any way.
You are right, nothing justifies fundamentally deceptive practices. That being said, there is redress. If you fit the position requirements, you apply and are rejected, and you believe you are a better fit than the rubber stamped incumbent, please raise a stink. I mean, if probably won't result in much but your career immolation, but it's justified, right?
Oh wait - you think maybe that being a small cog in the machinery of federal and state practices that requires perfunctory performances that can only lead to the harm of the individual is unfair? Perhaps you could share a beer with the poor sap who has to reapply for a job every two years.
I am appalled, and disappointed in the earlier posts. Why *shouldn't* our PhD granting institutions train foreign students as well? Where is this jingoism coming from? If you don't think that's what it is, please explain the reasons that foreign students should not have access to US institutions at the same rate as Americans should. Being a student, moreover, is NOT the same as getting a job!
I don't think anyone said that foreign students shouldn't be allowed access to American schools. I think what the poster was upset about what that it is becomming an increasing trend that there are more international students (read Asian students mostly from China) who are bing admitted at GREATER rates than US students. I have heard of at least one top-25 schools where if there was not a white "quota", the incoming cohorts would be completely Asian- based entirely on their high GRE scores.
Frankly, this discussion is becoming more and more disturbing.
If your argument is that we should downplay the role of the GREs in the selection criteria, that's a valid point of discussion. But who cares if the Asian-US, foreign-native ratio in grad school is disturbed? Why is this even an issue? This has nothing to do with the QUALITY of students that are admitted each year which is all that is worth discussing.
First, sociology should not and is the the study of the US. Second, perhaps Sociology of the US can be improved if more non-natives were included in the discussion. If whites can study blacks and men can study women, why shouldn't non-citizens be encouraged to study the US?
That's all well and good, but the data show that they are not studying the US. They are mostly studying China and other international countries. But, thats besides the point and really contributes nothing to this discussion. My problem, and I think others' problem, is that when you have a state funded university (that was created for the pure function of educating the state's students), and you are rejecting that state's students at record rates, we have to look at what's going on. Now certainly the high rejection rates are not solely the result of the increased admission of international students, but when all universities are looking at are GRE scores, there is a problem. Its similar to looking at IQ tests, SATs, and other standardized exams to admit students into undergraduate schools. We know those exams harm the chances of blacks. We also know those exams increase the desirability of Asian grad students. Shouldn't we be looking at more than just standardized exams. And if universities are going to provide scholarships and assistantships to international students at STATE funded schools at levels greater than students in their own state (and even their own country), isn't that a bit of a problem?
No I don't see the problem. The function of grad programs at the state level is not explicitly to train American students any more it is to train students who reside in that state. Should Michigan only admit individuals who have resided in Michigan all their lives? The function of high quality grad programs is to attract the best and the brightest researchers in order to support the best quality of research. I don't see why that should be tied to citizenship at all.
As a side note (but highly related), US institutions have benefited greatly for its open door policies. That's how we were able to attract so many scientists from overseas, take Albert Einstein and many other Nobel Prize winners, for example. We attract the best and the brightest from all over the world. Many stay on in the US and contribute to the scientific community here. Others go back home but continue to have strong ties to the US and help build lasting connections. So it is absolutely in the benefit of the US and state-funded institutions to maintain an open door policy.
I respectfully disagree with 7:14 a.m., though I acknowledge that your points are certainly historically accurate. However, in a globalizing world that still is centered around national boundaries (and to a lesser extent, state or provincial boundaries), American institutions need to at least protect the "national interest," as it were.
If that means a quota system where X number of slots are reserved for U.S. applicants, then that just puts the U.S. in the same boat as many other countries that already do this for their natives. I feel icky and jingoistic saying this, but thinking through the consequences of having so many students trained here and then leaving, I think it may be necessary as we move forward. However, I certainly would NOT support a closed door policy at all.
This recent discussion is precisely why I despise sociologists (but not the discipline of sociology). Sociologists are such f***ing hypocrits. This is a discipline that SUPPOSEDLY studies inequality and presumably tries to promote equality, but in the end, sociologists are no better than, say, white supremacists, nativists, etc. I swear, many sociologists hide under the cloak of the sociologist hood and robe to make it seem as if they were advocates of equality and social justice, but their behaviors (and attitudes) are anything but.
Well, now that I (9:00 a.m.) have been successfully labelled as a ethnocentric, nay a white supremacist, I won't say anything else. I mean, that is the point of demagoguery, right?
Actually, I shall continue. Yes, the U.S. has and does engage in practices which have led to the suppression of opportunities for other countries, and which has created significant structural disadvantages for individuals within those societies (sociological enough?). So to redress this situation, it is only fair to completely open the doors to students who will likely take their training and return to their native countries? I don't think that is prudent from a national standpoint (again, globalization has not penetrated state identity or political realities that significantly), and then ultimately won't it hurt the colleges and universities too, when there are not enough people around to teach and do research?
Now, I am all for hiring non-natives to work in universities in the United States, and I think the immigration laws need to be SIGNIFICANTLY modified to allow that to occur. However, if most are choosing to return to their native countries (which is an assumption that has permeated this discussion), then we risk the problem I noted above.
In a perfect world, the national boundaries and ethnic identities would be melted away along with class, gender and sexual inequalities, so that the economist's wet dream of talent willing out could come true. However, until the armchair sociologists who wave the banner of equality literally pick up their swords and fight the proverbial man, your very continued existence in the academy is as much a part of the subjugation of disadvantaged others as is my apparent supremacist ideology.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any data supporting the claim that the proportion of international students in top US sociology graduate programs has increased? I have not observed such a trend in my department, but an N of 1 doesn't tell me much.
I won't speak to the discussion about whether American universities should allocate available graduate student openings based on citizenship status. I can say that I am unaware of any such policy at my school. My own graduate school education has been enriched by the diversity of the graduate student body here and the unique perspective that many of the international students bring to the study of sociology.
As for the issue of whether international students seek eventual employment in the US, I'm always happy when someone decides to job search in another country because it is less competition for me on the job market here!
Lets be honest here...its not just that its international students. Most are Asian students (specifically from China). Lets not pretend that we are talking about DIVERSITY (with a big D) when we are really just talking about admitting lots of folks from China. Its one thing to say that we are becomming more cosmopolitan. Its quite another to see an emerging trend (just look at grad school websites for those who need the hard data) of large Chinese cohorts. Thats no more diversity than admitting mostly Polish or Italian or Slavic. So, lets scrap the diversity argument here, because its just not holding up.
1/4 of the human population currently lives in China. It is going through a demographic transition that is unparalleled in human history. The social and economic conditions in China has a greater impact on the global economy than perhap any other country in the world, even the US (e.g. the increase in commodity prices over the last few decades can be directly linked to population growth in China).
The study of China and Chinese society is perhaps the most important new area of study in sociology. It makes sense to include Chinese scholars and students in that discussion.
Most of the international students in my department are Asian, but not overwhelmingly Chinese. We have students from China, Japan, Korea, etc...
And don't be so quick to toss the argument that international students=diversity=good. Even if all the international students were Chinese, which they aren't, having them here still brings new perspectives to American sociology.
Besides, there may be more Asian students in graduate school in sociology in the US now, but there are not fewer American students. Everyone reading this blog got in, so what's the big deal?
If anything, we sociologists shoudl be concerned about poaching OTHER countries' educational systems, not the reverse that some have suggested here. E.g., recruiting nurses, doctors, engineers, and other professionals who have been trained by education systems in resource-poor countries--education systems that are government paid rather than private like most US institutions.
First, as one other person has pointed out, while most international students are Asian, not all are Chinese (in our department).
Second, by assuming all Chinese nationals have a similar culture, you are demonstrating a complete ignorance of Chinese society. There is probably more diversity between international Chinese students than between international European students.
Third, we do have some international non-Asian students. However, they wouldn't be spotted on a website roster and they aren't often thought of as "international", because they blend in more easily. This leaves Asian students as the stereotypical image of "international student", without being completely accurate.
Most international students, Asian or not, from my department do stay in the U.S. Some leave for other countries (not always their own!) Of those who leave, many become involved in large-scale projects that involve both international and American researchers, and their presence facilitates that important research. Wherever they go after graduating, their contribution to our graduate program is just as important as that of domestic students'.
In response to April 22, 2008 10:06 AM, I was the one who posted the info about Davis. I wasn't trying to narrow the field, as I already have a TT position. I had just heard from one of my friends who is on faculty at Davis and he gave me the scoop. If you don't believe me, ask your adviser to get in touch with someone there. It's a really unfortunate legal requirement (and it looks like others here are familiar with the technicalities) which wastes everyone's effort and emotion. (This is why they posted the ad at such a weird time.) Just trying to save folks a little headache (and heartache).
I was on the graduate admissions committee this year and GRE scores were NOT the deciding factor! Ever heard of writing samples or recommendation letters, or a good resume?
I was considering starting the 2008-2009 blog. Did people care whether we stuck with blogspot or not? Has someone already done this?
Note: my interest in doing this is a combo of curiousity and planning. I'm putting together some stuff for my department, and wanted to provide the link for the next blog (but found none). I managed to get a job this past year, so I would be merely a lurker on the site.
Who knows where to download XRumer 5.0 Palladium? Help, please. All recommend this program to effectively advertise on the Internet, this is the best program!
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2,327 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 2201 – 2327 of 2327Hey - I got the job at Cal State - Farallon Islands!! I've heard the students are a bit slippery, but at least it's not Oklahoma.
"Slippery"?
and "Farallon Islands"?
whale of an effort.... but not funny
Heard Bard made an offer to its inside candidate.
People have already asked a few times but - any news about the George Mason (not Washington) University position? Their immigration position.
Re: Baruch
I believe the standard courseload at Baruch is 3/4, but there are a lot of course releases at the beginning.
Anyone heard about Holy Cross?
Holy Cross:
Offer made and accepted.
There were a number of posts earlier about rumors regarding USC Sociology's junior immigration search. I wanted to let you all know that the position has been filled, and the department successfully hired its candidate of first choice.
Thanks... pigeon immigration, no doubt...
Florida International has interviewed all short-listed candidates (Asian studies/Sociology position) and is voting at the end of the week.
a question for the RWJ postdocs gurus.... for the next year's market, is there any etiquette to applying for both the Health and Society and Scholars in Health Policy Programs? Is it done, do people apply to both to maximize their chances? Are there any disadvantages to that? Any other pointers for those of us who are already preparing for the next round??
I'll answer your RWJ question in the postdoc thread...click on over...
Can anyone out there estimate the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Immigration and migration are very different things. Get it right!
Immigration and migration are very different things. Get it right!
I know this really belongs onn a different page, but it seems like no one's reading the new positions page anymore, so I thought I'd put it here (with apologies for taking up a bit of space). I just thought this might be great for someone who's still looking... I found it on publicservicecareers.org
Assistant Professor, Community and Regional Development and Director, Center for the Study of Regional Change, University of California, Davis
The position is 50% as Director of the Center, and 50% tenure track faculty member (hired at the Assistant Professor level) in the Community Studies and Development Program.
Applications: Candidates should begin the application process by registering online at https://secure.caes.ucdavis.edu/Recruitment/. Inquiries should be directed to the chair of the recruitment committee: Chris Benner, Associate Professor, Community Studies and Development (530) 754-8799, ccbenner@ucdavis.edu
Last week it was mentioned that Georgia State would begin scheduling interviews for the second position this week. Any word on that?
10:01. It's a simple question of weight ratios...
Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?
Pomona Soc/Media Studies was cancelled for the 2nd year in a row
Wow. I wonder what that means? How often do search committee's cancel multiple searches?
Re: Georgia State. At least two interviews are scheduled this coming week.
Lehman-CUNY started scheduling for telephone interviews.
University of Oregon Position has officially been filled. Nearly 250 applied, and overall candidate quality was high, making search exceptionally competitive. Anyone's back hurt yet from patting ourselves on the back?
Transylvania University position has been offered and accepted. Rumor has it that Dr. Jekyll was highly sought after, and accepted it after getting some strange concessions. . . . .
(Sorry if you are the one that accepted the position, I have been waiting to post it if I didn't get it!)
University of Hawaii Women's Studies search was cancelled for this year, but has been given permission to advertise for next year. Anyone hear anything on the Sociology position at U of H?
Any info about The City College, CUNY?
U of Wisconsin Milwaukee:
Offer (health position) made.
I don't know if it has been accepted.
coo!
what happened to that pigeon?
Any info on the Michigan State ESPP/pop and environment position? Haven't seen anything about it on the wiki...
Anyone else receive a rude rejection letter from Northern Arizona? Mine quoted the job posting and suggested that I wasn't qualified for the position -- I'm an Assitant Professor at a highly regarded and highly ranked program, teaching, researching and publishing in the field NAU posted and my PhD is from a highly ranked (top 10) program. I don't mind being rejected, but not qualified? So much for the thought of moving to a slower-paced part of the country that I thought would be more civil...
Did the ad refer to a specialty you don't have or a class you can't teach? Sounds to me like a place that's finally gotten fed up with reading applications from people who don't fit the bill...?
Nope. As I wrote, I'm "in the field" advertised. I teach and publish on globalization. It's one thing not to be interested in an applicant...but to be so rude is weird.
Re: 10:56,
I think it's not all that rare that a position will go unfilled for several years running. In multi-departmental searches, like the Soc/Media Studies position at Pomona, it seems particularly likely, since it can be even more difficult for people from different discliplines to agree on criteria in a search than it can on a regular single-dept. search committee.
Of course, there can be other issues. A school that's got a good reputation and can make an attractive offer might only interview top candidates, who might be equally appealling to other places that can make even better offers. Don't know what happened at Pomona, but it's not hard to imagine them losing out to UCLA, for example. By the time the desired candidate rejects the department, it might be too late to hire someone else. It's not that hard to imagine something like this happening for a couple of years in a row.
Any info on what is happening at Mississippi State? A listing for a tenure track position went up this morning on the Chronicle of Higher Ed site. Surfing over to the school's HR page this seems to be for a specialization in demography, essentially the same as a position advertised last summer. Judging by the wiki, it looks like they already interviewed candidates for such a position but have not made a hire. Anyone have more info?
8:46, I haven't a clue about the Chronicle ad you mention, but Mississippi State hired someone in the demography search months ago.
Any word of UW-Stevens Point?
Does anyone know what happened to the immigration & urban sociology position at Cal Poly Pomona?
I am wondering the same.
Sheesh! No need for the hostility.
There's a new job posted in the ASA Job Bank for Akita International University in Japan. If you're tempted, you might want to check out a discussion on the Chronicle forum before putting too much effort into an application: http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,28632.0.html
Has anyone heard anything from Buffalo State College?
I was called by buffalo state a couple of weeks ago for an interview for the gender position.
For those of you still wondering about Baruch, I have heard that they are still doing phone interviews and will schedule campus visits shortly.
To 12:43PM,
What happened to the position at Queens college?
Any word on CUNY Hunter College?
UW-Stevens Point are currently conducting interviews
Has Buf State finished interviewing, then?
Queens College is very disorganized.
I second that comment on Queens...
I third the comment on Queens college.
Sadly, a fourth. :(
cuny queens?
I met with them at ASA's and the guy talked on his cell phone during my entire "interview."
Re: Buffalo
They should be done, but they were on a break last week
I heard Buffalo State is finishing their interviews this week.
CUNY-Hunter search has been filled.
Does anyone know whether Oneonta has made an offer?
Thanks!
Oneaonta has made an offer and it has been accepted a couple of weeks ago.
Sorry.
Congrats to the new Oneonta person - it looks like a nice place to be.
Baruch is doing campus interviews. I think they have already interviewed 2-3 people and they will interview couple of more.
Whatever happened with Indiana at Pennsylvania? (IUP)
The IUP position has already been filled by a very capable and promising young scholar
Anybody know what happened at UNC-Wilmington? I never heard what occurred after the posting about the position being declined back in February. Did they hire someone (for the open position)?
Has anyone gotten an offer from anywhere this week? I'm on post-interview pins and needles and thought I'd throw the question out there and see if it helped.
has anyone heard about the Michigan State position
Does anyone know if the North Carolina State University position has been filled?
IUP - a "young and promising scholar"?? A likely story - and anyway, if true, then surely a temporary story. I wonder how many people there remember the name "Satoshi".
2:58, which one? At least the quant methods one is filled.
2:59, if there was just one, then yes. by someone from the same dept as the MSU quant methods person, too.
Satoshi is now at the London School of Economics....FYI
All of the open positions at NC State have been filled.
Here is the list of scholars chosen for the RWJ Health Policy Scholars in Sociology. Now, who was saying that they don't choose mostly people from IVY or top schools? My point was proven- thank you very much!
Rene Almeling (Scholars Program at the University of California, Berkeley/San Francisco)
2008 PhD, UCLA
Colin Jerolmack (Scholars Program at Harvard University)
2008 PhD, CUNY
Helen Marrow (Scholars Program at the University of California, Berkeley/San Francisco)
Lecturer, Harvard University
Fabio Rojas (Scholars Program at the University of Michigan)
Assistant Professor, Indiana University (on leave)
Christine Percheski (Scholars Program at Harvard University)
2008 PhD, Princeton University
Has anyone heard even the most unreliable of rumors regarding Buffalo State's offer?
Can anyone confirm that the College of Staten Island made an offer? Anyone know when it was made?
If any of you notice a job ad for a social psych position at UC Davis, don't get too excited: it's actually filled by someone without citizenship so for some weird reason they have to "open" the search every two years. don't waste energy/emotion on it.
That is mean...
mean in it's consequences. flat out unethical in practice. speaking as someone who has experience investing considerable time and energy in applying and interviewing for a position for which i was only fodder perform a bureaucratic process, this practice not only pisses me off to no end, it should be illegal.
Who said finding a job is fair?
And speaking of "illegal", ever heard of white club in academia?
So dont sulk...apply and you will find something. Good Luck.
i found a job, thank you. being fair should not be conflated with being legal, and being pissed off should not be confused with sulking.
Re: Queens College. Are you guys talking about the asst level demography position? At PAA I talked to the person who got that job and it seemed like the process was a bit more together than you all are implying.
The UC Davis comment is obviously false. Any non-US citizen offered a TT Job will not have any immigration problems. I've known plenty of people who've come to America on job offers and the green card comes without a problem. One of the many, many benefits of having a high level of education and an university job offer is that the immigration process becomes easy (and inexpensive, as most universities cover the costs as part of the job offer). Moreover, "opening" a search every year or two would make it even more difficult to justify that the "non-citizen" is the best candidate for the job since tons of equaly qualified Americans would apply.
So, I'd disregard the post as a bogus story. Maybe someone is trying to narrow down the competition.
If you don't like the advertisement every two years, go and pressure your government to change immigration laws. Yes, the law does require that companies that hire internationals advertise the position, because they need to give preference to Americans if they're equally qualified. If the U.S. were a small and insignificant country, I would agree with this policy. But given that the U.S. is the world's hegemonic power in academia and that people in other countries often accept theories developed here without questioning, opening space for us who happen to have been born in the periphery doesn't sound like such a bad idea. So this is a way for universities to circumvent a law that is already extremely biased and unfair, biased against people who already come here with a disadvantage of being born in the "wrong" place. And no, getting a green card is not automatic, first you need to get an H1-B, and then you apply for a green card, and usually it's a long and complicated process.
all well and good, but this does not justify fundamentally deceptive practices.
And does it justify accepting international students as half of an incoming graduate cohort? There are reasons these students have higher GRE scores, but those scores should not automatically grant international students a pre-eminent place above US students, particularly in a state-funded university. As much as I agree with the US's hegemonic power, its a bit diconcerting to see that US students are being replaced with international students in incoming graduate cohorts.
Damn F'rgners... blasted immgrints!
Somebody call in the academic Minutemen!
Oh, come on - everyone knows that international students are smarter and harder-working than American students...
And as they show in bollywood films:
Dhich-kau Dhich-Kau
Followed by louds "ahhhhhs" and the enemy is dead!
Long live the foreign students..
1) The basic degree abroad tends to be much more focused and oriented towards sociology than the American major, that is why -and not GRE scores- international students are finding their way more often into American Ph Ds
2) about UC Davis, usually when someone can not go into a H1-B visa (the one that leads to the green card) they go for a special kind of visa called O-1. Having that visa means the person can not be "certified" by the Labor department and the search has to be repeated -since the foreign person who got the job "instead of the US citizen" won't be on its way to permanent residency.
Since the position is actually filled, departments which have hired people with that kind of visa limitations, have to repeat the search to please the Labor Department, even if the search will end up being cancelled any way.
and i repeat, none of this justifies fundamentally deceptive practices.
You are right, nothing justifies fundamentally deceptive practices. That being said, there is redress. If you fit the position requirements, you apply and are rejected, and you believe you are a better fit than the rubber stamped incumbent, please raise a stink. I mean, if probably won't result in much but your career immolation, but it's justified, right?
Oh wait - you think maybe that being a small cog in the machinery of federal and state practices that requires perfunctory performances that can only lead to the harm of the individual is unfair? Perhaps you could share a beer with the poor sap who has to reapply for a job every two years.
I am appalled, and disappointed in the earlier posts. Why *shouldn't* our PhD granting institutions train foreign students as well? Where is this jingoism coming from? If you don't think that's what it is, please explain the reasons that foreign students should not have access to US institutions at the same rate as Americans should. Being a student, moreover, is NOT the same as getting a job!
I don't think anyone said that foreign students shouldn't be allowed access to American schools. I think what the poster was upset about what that it is becomming an increasing trend that there are more international students (read Asian students mostly from China) who are bing admitted at GREATER rates than US students. I have heard of at least one top-25 schools where if there was not a white "quota", the incoming cohorts would be completely Asian- based entirely on their high GRE scores.
Frankly, this discussion is becoming more and more disturbing.
If your argument is that we should downplay the role of the GREs in the selection criteria, that's a valid point of discussion. But who cares if the Asian-US, foreign-native ratio in grad school is disturbed? Why is this even an issue? This has nothing to do with the QUALITY of students that are admitted each year which is all that is worth discussing.
First, sociology should not and is the the study of the US. Second, perhaps Sociology of the US can be improved if more non-natives were included in the discussion. If whites can study blacks and men can study women, why shouldn't non-citizens be encouraged to study the US?
That's all well and good, but the data show that they are not studying the US. They are mostly studying China and other international countries. But, thats besides the point and really contributes nothing to this discussion. My problem, and I think others' problem, is that when you have a state funded university (that was created for the pure function of educating the state's students), and you are rejecting that state's students at record rates, we have to look at what's going on. Now certainly the high rejection rates are not solely the result of the increased admission of international students, but when all universities are looking at are GRE scores, there is a problem. Its similar to looking at IQ tests, SATs, and other standardized exams to admit students into undergraduate schools. We know those exams harm the chances of blacks. We also know those exams increase the desirability of Asian grad students. Shouldn't we be looking at more than just standardized exams. And if universities are going to provide scholarships and assistantships to international students at STATE funded schools at levels greater than students in their own state (and even their own country), isn't that a bit of a problem?
No I don't see the problem. The function of grad programs at the state level is not explicitly to train American students any more it is to train students who reside in that state. Should Michigan only admit individuals who have resided in Michigan all their lives? The function of high quality grad programs is to attract the best and the brightest researchers in order to support the best quality of research. I don't see why that should be tied to citizenship at all.
As a side note (but highly related), US institutions have benefited greatly for its open door policies. That's how we were able to attract so many scientists from overseas, take Albert Einstein and many other Nobel Prize winners, for example. We attract the best and the brightest from all over the world. Many stay on in the US and contribute to the scientific community here. Others go back home but continue to have strong ties to the US and help build lasting connections. So it is absolutely in the benefit of the US and state-funded institutions to maintain an open door policy.
I respectfully disagree with 7:14 a.m., though I acknowledge that your points are certainly historically accurate. However, in a globalizing world that still is centered around national boundaries (and to a lesser extent, state or provincial boundaries), American institutions need to at least protect the "national interest," as it were.
If that means a quota system where X number of slots are reserved for U.S. applicants, then that just puts the U.S. in the same boat as many other countries that already do this for their natives. I feel icky and jingoistic saying this, but thinking through the consequences of having so many students trained here and then leaving, I think it may be necessary as we move forward. However, I certainly would NOT support a closed door policy at all.
This recent discussion is precisely why I despise sociologists (but not the discipline of sociology). Sociologists are such f***ing hypocrits. This is a discipline that SUPPOSEDLY studies inequality and presumably tries to promote equality, but in the end, sociologists are no better than, say, white supremacists, nativists, etc. I swear, many sociologists hide under the cloak of the sociologist hood and robe to make it seem as if they were advocates of equality and social justice, but their behaviors (and attitudes) are anything but.
9:56am,
I hear you! Sometimes I wonder if my ethnocentric (racist?) sociology colleagues studied the same discipline as I.
Well, now that I (9:00 a.m.) have been successfully labelled as a ethnocentric, nay a white supremacist, I won't say anything else. I mean, that is the point of demagoguery, right?
Actually, I shall continue. Yes, the U.S. has and does engage in practices which have led to the suppression of opportunities for other countries, and which has created significant structural disadvantages for individuals within those societies (sociological enough?). So to redress this situation, it is only fair to completely open the doors to students who will likely take their training and return to their native countries? I don't think that is prudent from a national standpoint (again, globalization has not penetrated state identity or political realities that significantly), and then ultimately won't it hurt the colleges and universities too, when there are not enough people around to teach and do research?
Now, I am all for hiring non-natives to work in universities in the United States, and I think the immigration laws need to be SIGNIFICANTLY modified to allow that to occur. However, if most are choosing to return to their native countries (which is an assumption that has permeated this discussion), then we risk the problem I noted above.
In a perfect world, the national boundaries and ethnic identities would be melted away along with class, gender and sexual inequalities, so that the economist's wet dream of talent willing out could come true. However, until the armchair sociologists who wave the banner of equality literally pick up their swords and fight the proverbial man, your very continued existence in the academy is as much a part of the subjugation of disadvantaged others as is my apparent supremacist ideology.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any data supporting the claim that the proportion of international students in top US sociology graduate programs has increased? I have not observed such a trend in my department, but an N of 1 doesn't tell me much.
I won't speak to the discussion about whether American universities should allocate available graduate student openings based on citizenship status. I can say that I am unaware of any such policy at my school. My own graduate school education has been enriched by the diversity of the graduate student body here and the unique perspective that many of the international students bring to the study of sociology.
As for the issue of whether international students seek eventual employment in the US, I'm always happy when someone decides to job search in another country because it is less competition for me on the job market here!
Not sure how this discussion is relevant to this thread...
4:25
There has been no discussion on this thread, so shove it.
Lets be honest here...its not just that its international students. Most are Asian students (specifically from China). Lets not pretend that we are talking about DIVERSITY (with a big D) when we are really just talking about admitting lots of folks from China. Its one thing to say that we are becomming more cosmopolitan. Its quite another to see an emerging trend (just look at grad school websites for those who need the hard data) of large Chinese cohorts. Thats no more diversity than admitting mostly Polish or Italian or Slavic. So, lets scrap the diversity argument here, because its just not holding up.
1/4 of the human population currently lives in China. It is going through a demographic transition that is unparalleled in human history. The social and economic conditions in China has a greater impact on the global economy than perhap any other country in the world, even the US (e.g. the increase in commodity prices over the last few decades can be directly linked to population growth in China).
The study of China and Chinese society is perhaps the most important new area of study in sociology. It makes sense to include Chinese scholars and students in that discussion.
Most of the international students in my department are Asian, but not overwhelmingly Chinese. We have students from China, Japan, Korea, etc...
And don't be so quick to toss the argument that international students=diversity=good. Even if all the international students were Chinese, which they aren't, having them here still brings new perspectives to American sociology.
Besides, there may be more Asian students in graduate school in sociology in the US now, but there are not fewer American students. Everyone reading this blog got in, so what's the big deal?
Any information on the Central Michigan Search?
If anything, we sociologists shoudl be concerned about poaching OTHER countries' educational systems, not the reverse that some have suggested here. E.g., recruiting nurses, doctors, engineers, and other professionals who have been trained by education systems in resource-poor countries--education systems that are government paid rather than private like most US institutions.
First, as one other person has pointed out, while most international students are Asian, not all are Chinese (in our department).
Second, by assuming all Chinese nationals have a similar culture, you are demonstrating a complete ignorance of Chinese society. There is probably more diversity between international Chinese students than between international European students.
Third, we do have some international non-Asian students. However, they wouldn't be spotted on a website roster and they aren't often thought of as "international", because they blend in more easily. This leaves Asian students as the stereotypical image of "international student", without being completely accurate.
Most international students, Asian or not, from my department do stay in the U.S. Some leave for other countries (not always their own!) Of those who leave, many become involved in large-scale projects that involve both international and American researchers, and their presence facilitates that important research. Wherever they go after graduating, their contribution to our graduate program is just as important as that of domestic students'.
In response to April 22, 2008 10:06 AM, I was the one who posted the info about Davis. I wasn't trying to narrow the field, as I already have a TT position. I had just heard from one of my friends who is on faculty at Davis and he gave me the scoop. If you don't believe me, ask your adviser to get in touch with someone there. It's a really unfortunate legal requirement (and it looks like others here are familiar with the technicalities) which wastes everyone's effort and emotion. (This is why they posted the ad at such a weird time.) Just trying to save folks a little headache (and heartache).
I was on the graduate admissions committee this year and GRE scores were NOT the deciding factor! Ever heard of writing samples or recommendation letters, or a good resume?
The George Mason immigration position has been filled.
re. 11:42,
glad to know GRE's aren't the deciding factor in your department. But what do GRE's have to do with getting TT jobs?
Anyone heard anything about the Southern Utah visiting position?
GREs: a belated comment to the Asian students-GRE-admissions thread. Sorry for any confusion!
...bought time for a new blog 'eh?
there is one up - a new blog, i mean. same address but 2008.
I was considering starting the 2008-2009 blog. Did people care whether we stuck with blogspot or not? Has someone already done this?
Note: my interest in doing this is a combo of curiousity and planning. I'm putting together some stuff for my department, and wanted to provide the link for the next blog (but found none). I managed to get a job this past year, so I would be merely a lurker on the site.
Thoughts? ~Benny
Benny,
The new blog is already up at:
http://socrumormill2008.blogspot.com/
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