Every time I log in to the blog, I check to make sure the Hires section still has zero comments. Tonight I decided to 1) see what it felt like to post under 'Hires', and 2) break the horrible anticipation that I - and, I figure, you - feel every time we check.
For those who have received offers, congratulations! If you don't mind sharing, how much have you been offered in salary? That way those without offers are in an informed position to negotiate.
Just wanted to remind people to NEGOTIATE! I had one offer - no competing ones - but still got the school (a mid-tier R1) to give me $3K more in salary, $5K more in start up research funds, and $2K more in moving costs. It never hurts to ask - and I didn't even ask about extra start up money...! Good luck to everyone.
A data point from last year -- mid-range R1, low-ish cost of living area, $58,000 plus $30,000 startup and two-course reduction for first year (1-1 instead of 2-2). Negotiated for a couple thousand more in salary plus a little summer salary for first couple of years.
Wow...re: start up funds, is it common to get $30K? (I have a friend in math who got $100K, but that's math...I didn't think that sociology offered anything more than $10K. Eg, I recently interviewed at a R1 where they were offering only $5K. What's the average research fund package?
I don't know what the average is, but the overall package (decent, mid-level R1) for the position I accepted is:
salary: $68,000 start up funds: $25,000 teaching: 2/1 first two yrs, 2/2 thereafter
If more people post this info, hopefully more people will get better packages - and schools won't assume we'll take whatever they offer just because it's a tough market... just a thought. Good luck to everyone!
this is useful information. it would really help if people would indicate whether or not things like summer pay and moving expenses are included in the lump startup sums they list. (sometimes these things are lumped with startup and sometimes not.)
The info just above is quite similar to what I received at a mid-level R1 as well, except my teaching was 1-1 for the first year and then 2-1 thereafter. I got $19K in start-up, $6K in computer equipment, 4/9ths of summer salary (spread over 3 summers), and $10K in moving expenses. Hope this is helpful.
I'm in the process of negotiating an offer and find myself a little weak-kneed at the prospect of a salary! Can anyone help me out? For example, what exactly do start up funds cover? Why would I need more than what I've been offered? Also, do you work out ALL the monetary stuff before you move on to the non-monetary? I know it's salary first. Just not sure what to talk about next-- more money or some concerns (like tenure details, additional course release, etc...) BTW, I'm not negotiating with another offer on the table or grants forthcoming. Thanks!
Hmm...I'm not sure it is "salary-first." For me, it was course reductions first. In my experience, it is much less likely that they will move much on salary than on other factors. Go ahead and ask for $5K more, but you will be lucky to get it (unless you have a higher offer at a comparable institution). What is most important to you? An extra $2K per year or only teaching one course in your first semester? For me, it was the latter. This is with the usual caveats about "where you start in salary has a huge impact on where you end, given annual raises, etc."
Your start-up has to cover basically every kind of professional and research expense you can think of, for a few years, until you start getting grants and are able to pay for that stuff yourself. Go to three conferences a year? That's $3-$4K right there. Are you a member at three professional associations? That's another $700 or so. How many software packages do you have to purchase? Do you need expensive transcription services? A proof-reader for your manuscript? An RA?
Definitely bargain for course reductions. An extra 3-5K is nice, but you're much more likely to get tenure if you have an extra 20 hours a week to write.
what is in the range of possible things to ask for in terms of course reductions? more than one for the first year? an extra semester of pre-tenure sabbatical? what else is possible?
7:28 - the only person who I have heard of getting a starting salary in the $70k+ range ANYWHERE (but it happened to be at one of the ivies) was someone who was wrapping up an RWJ and was able to negotiate that hu needed something comparable to their $80,000 postdoc salary.
I think $68-$75 or so is perfectly reasonable at elite schools...remember, two years ago someone got $82K (had tons of offers, though). I got above $70 myself.
Please keep in mind that for your basic SLAC, the money and perks vary widely. Schools with higher teaching loads - not your 1/1 or 2/1 cush gigs - cannot give much of a break on teaching. Schools where teaching actually matters may not have much room, if any, for start-up costs, figuring that the candidate's main effort will be --> teaching, not setting the world on fire with research. And finally, friends, if you do get $60 K, plus perks, or more, right out grad school, please remember that you have a great situation and will be earning more than many many profs with 5, 10, 15, or 20 years of experience. Just keep it all in perspective.
In the spirit of "keeping things in perspective," I for one am GLAD that salaries for new assistant professors have increased in recent years. In the "real" world, someone coming out of college with a BA can earn $60K+ off the bat (AND without necessarily having to sell their soul to the corporate devil by being an investment banker!). The truth of the matter is that it is a DISGRACE that professors who have 5+ years experience in some places are making less than $60k! What sociology should be pushing for is parity of pay with other competitive social science fields such as economics, NOT quiet acceptance of a meager salaries. Let's face it, being a sociologist is NOT a wealth-generating occupation. Most of us chose to dedicate our lives/career to sociology for non-monetary ideals (eg, making the world a better place). BUT this doesn't mean that we necessarily need to be paid less than what is deserving. And yes, what is "deserving" is all relative. But dang it, after 6+ years in graduate school, living on a pittance wage, I for one want and demand something more than $60K!
I agree wholeheartedly with 4:04. Market Grizzled makes a great point that we need to be respectful of the wide variation that exists in the nature and types of jobs in our field. Nonetheless, new graduates should be encouraged to at least ask for the higher end of a market-appropriate wage, whether that is 50 or 80. Several of the graduating students in our program have training that is very similar to their counterparts in economics and the starting salary for juniors in that field is often 90-100+. It never hurts to ask.
I agree with the sentiment that you should ask for a higher salary. I asked for one to meet my cushy post-doc salary (my post doc's at an elite place, but my best offer is not...) They bumped up my offer and through in a couple of other perks b/c they couldn't raise the salary any higher...
So I'm going to make a kind of controversial statement here. I think it's kind of a functionalist view that people who are more educated SHOULD get a better sallary than those who are less (or maybe just an elitist view). I find it funny that sociologist still buy into this view. I don't think that doctors should get paid so much more than construction workers just because they are more educated. I would never have spent my life doing manual labor even if it paid the same as having a PhD because it would have been a much more unpleasant experience. So I don't understand why we should get compensated for having the opportunity to learn and study.
I've never negotiated salary in academia, but I did have quite a bit of corporate experience before graduate school. In business anyway, 10% was the norm and 20% was not unreasonable. I'm not saying everyone got that, but it was reasonable to ask in that range.
One thing that really helped in negotiating was to be able to justify your requests for a higher salary. People who were the most successful in getting a higher salary or extra benefits/perks were the people who wrote a good letter outlining why they felt they deserved those things ("I want more money" isn't very compelling!).
If you have grants or can make the case that you'll get some, explain that you'll be bringing money in so a higher salary is justified. If you have a specialized research program that requires more start-up funding, emphasize the return on that funding. Remember that this is a MARKET and the product is the research you will produce. The department is deciding how much to invest in you, the entity that will produce the product. The better a product you can convince the you will produce, the more likely they are to want to invest more. The key is that you have to make a good pitch as to why they should invest more in you.
If you google search, you can find some very good examples of negotiation letters. And keep in mind, the worst thing is that they will say no and the original offer will stand. I once went through a prolonged salary negotiation process only to find at the end that the salary was determined by some HR formula and the hiring manager couldn't offer me more even though she wanted to. However, the offer still stood and no one thought less of me for having lobbied hard for more pay.
>The truth of the matter is that it >is a DISGRACE that professors who >have 5+ years experience in some >places are making less than $60k!
It's a disgrace but it's the truth. I'm at an SLAC where, after 7 years and a teaching award, I'm *still* under 60K. (This is standard for the humanities, social sciences, education, social work, and many other non-business disciplines at our university and almost all other SLAC that I know. The salaries suggested here seem *very* high to me and reflect differences in research and teaching schools.)
Do your best to negotiate at the outset as you'll have virtually no ability to do this after you arrive --unless you prove valuable *and* have another offer on the table.
FYI - our monetary offer was fairly rigid. The budget is what the budget is. We had some wiggle room on moving expenses--offering nothing to offering 1K.
We expect our new hire to do 4/4 load although we let them hold off on advising and service the first year.
That may sound bleak but I'd like to think that we make up for the low salary by offering a very strong sense of community with no backstabbing that I've seen, creative opportunities in classes/service/etc, a broad model of scholarship, and an engaged and dynamic student body. Plus, our cost of living is pretty reasonable here.
SLACs aren't where the money is but it's a better life than most.
NE mid-tier R-1, low cost of living area $60K $4K moving $3.5K research start up 2-1 teaching the first year and an AWESOME 2 year post-doc for my academic spouse
The non-elite public schools seem to have more constraints on what they can do for your salary. Or at least I fell for that. The wealthy private schools are the ones that have $30k~ for research start up. I had a such an offer, with $65K starting (I didn't try to negotiate higher b/c I turned it down for a better school).
9:36 -- also maybe summer research funding (salary, travel, and other research expenses) possibly funding for RAs possibly training for you or your RAs books journal subscriptions conference travel conference membership fees
For qualitative research-- if you plan to write a book, it might be helpful to have an RA to assist with the book preparations, like fact checking, etc.
This goes for anyone-- you may want to ask for summer salary for summer 2008, to make that transition easier. Also, I found it was easier to get more research funds when I could list specific things I needed it for.
I have to say that I am impressed by the non-SLAC market and by your commitment & ability viz. negotiating. I had a post-doc, a teaching award, and lots of full-time teaching experience after my degree, and I just broke $50K. As the other underpaid poster noted, the intangible benefits - a collegial department, a good gig, a nice place to live, and at least in my case - some fantastic students - can somewhat make up for the salary gap. What is harder to stomach is the apparent reality that though I can and do work upwards of 70 hours some weeks, my labor will certainly never be valued the way an R-1 prof's is. Yes, I am a sociologist, and yes, I have the ability to be analytical about this. But the socked in the gut feeling, knowing that being primarily focused on teaching is so devalued, is about a feeling, -not- an objective analysis of the actual 'worth' of my labor vs. the 'worth' of the labor of someone whose main contribution is journal articles and maybe some grants. We have a great and weird and sad and wonderful industry here.
How are we defining "mid-level"? Are these places that are 20-50 in the US News Rankings? Just about everyone keeps using the term "mid-level"- makes me wonder how people are defining it.
On another note, does anyone know what to expect for salary from a state school in the mid-Atlantic region?
+ moving expenses + one month summer salary for first yr + one year pre-tenure sabbatical + $1000 annual research funds + 2/1 courseload first yr, then 2/2
Caveat: I don't mean to criticize that use of mid-level. As someone who comes from a recognized top-tier program I tend toward that use as well. At the same time, it's worth noting that this use really does come from a place of privilege. I think the number of North American PhD sociology programs is around 140. In what way does it make sense to call a #20-ranked program only "mid-level"? Reviewing the latest (limited, yes) USNews rankings, I don't really think of Yale, NYU, or UC-Irvine (all programs ranked in the 20s) as "mid-level."
I really do, incidentally, mean my question--what are the sorts of things that make people think of a program as "mid-level"? But maybe that's for the misc thread, not this one.
I agree with the last poster. What makes someone consider something mid-level? Plus, is there a way we can be more specific about offers. For instance, in addition to saying the level of the R1, or R2, or SLAC, can we also say whether its state or private, how large, rural vs. urban, region?
I think the key is that the original poster was referring to a "mid-level R1", not just a mid-level school. So I think calling 20-40 or so midlevel is reasonable, assuming the top 60 or so PhD programs are all R1s (and there probably aren't that many R1s).
Arent just about all PhD sociology programs R1s? There are additional R1s that are not PhD granting departments, but I thought almost all of the schools with PhD granting soc. departments were R1s.
Research I university was a category used by the Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education to indicate those universities in the United States which received the highest amounts of Federal science research funding.
The Carnegie Foundation has updated this terminology noting:
Doctorate-granting Universities. With this edition, doctorate-granting institutions are once again differentiated based on an explicit measure of research activity. We now use a multi-measure index rather than the single measure of federal funding used in previous editions [...] Using the new methodology, we have identified three categories of doctorate-granting institutions. Because of these changes, the new categories are not comparable to those previously used (Research I & II and Doctoral I & II; and Doctoral/Research—Extensive and Intensive)
Doctorate-granting Universities. Includes institutions that award at least 20 doctoral degrees per year (excluding doctoral-level degrees that qualify recipients for entry into professional practice, such as the JD, MD, PharmD, DPT, etc.). Excludes Special Focus Institutions and Tribal Colleges.
RU/VH: Research Universities (very high research activity) RU/H: Research Universities (high research activity) DRU: Doctoral/Research Universities
At least some SLACs offer a year or two of summer funding as part of the start-up package, and more have internal competitive grants for the summers, with the idea that you'd use one to help you do research or develop a new course.
Depends on the SLAC, I'm sure, but for the most part, "summer salary" means the same as at research schools: extra money in the first couple of years that is supposed to support research time. I turned down summer salary and negotiated a higher base salary. Other schools did mention that one could teach during the summer for extra "overload" pay, but that's not something I've ever heard of anyone negotiating for in an offer.
-$54,000 -up to $5,000 in moving expenses -$1,000 travel annually -no start-up package, but pay actual cost of necessary software and other research expenses
I've been reading with interest the information about offers and the advice about negotiating. I'm not totally clear on the logistics. Do people usually receive offers by phone? If so, do you have to be ready to negotiate - also by phone - right then and there? I've heard that it often takes a while for paper offers to appear, so I'm assuming that's not the first notice we receive....
When you get an offer, you will almost definitely hear first by phone. Normally, people ask for some time to think it over (usually you're given around a week--but that window narrows the later we get in the hiring season). If you decide to accept, a written offer will follow (either by fax or mail). Negotiation over salary, startup packages, etc. comes after you've received the written offer.
I got an offer over the phone. I asked for two weeks to decide.
First, I got them to email me the terms of the offer. Then, we set up a time to talk on the phone. On the phone, we negotiated slightly higher amounts. The chair then talked to the Dean to get the new offer approved. THEN they sent me a contract in the mail.
My suggestion, when you answer the phone the first time, say something like, "I'm so excited, that is such great news. Can you tell me the terms of the offer?.... Okay, could you send me an email outlining those? Great. Can I have some time to talk to my advisor and family about this? Two weeks? Great. Okay, can we set up a time next week to discuss the specifics of the offer? Perfect."
If they press you to negotiate right then and there, just stall and say: "I'm not prepared to discuss specific numbers right now, I'd like to talk to my advisor/family first."
Also, you can tell them you want to visit the area one more time. They paid my expenses for a day.
CPL says it right. If you do what 1:03 suggests, you will accept an offer and then try to negotiate. Doesn't work that way.
The best thing you can do is when you receive the verbal offer, write down all the terms, say, "I'm thrilled, but I need to sit down and look this over / talk with my adviser / talk to the other school I've just interviewed at." If they haven't mentioned anything like start-up funds, you might ask them whether they have any plans for that. Then call them back to negotiate, after you've figured out your rationale for asking for more.
Once you've negotiated, settled on a deal, and verbally accepted, they will send you a written offer. It's nearly impossible to change your deal at this point unless you just got a better offer from somewhere else that you're willing to take instead.
Can't reiterate this point enough--do NOT accept right away! All you have to say is what Karl and other guy said. "Thanks so much, this is good news, I need to discuss the terms with my advisor."
I don't think the prior poster was advocating accepting right away--but it does happen in the excitement of the moment.
No, don't accept right away... and don't ask them to send you a contract right away. The contract has to go through a lot of stages of approval, once it is written, it's hard to get it re-written. That is why I asked for an email with the initial terms. That way, I had a "written" record of the offer (although probably not legally enforceable) yet nothing was set until after the phone call negotiation.
I admit this was confusing to me at the time. I spend a lot of time on the CHE forums and they always say get something in writing before you do any negotiating. Maybe that is how it works in other disciplines, or maybe I misunderstood. But I prefer to keep the written records down to a minimum at first to ensure flexibility during negotiation.
Karl is right. It is MUCH easier to change the terms before it has been approved by the dean, provost, etc. And that is usually before it is all in writing. An email is a good idea, although I just wrote down the offer, talked it over with my advisors, and then negotiated with the chair the next day. A few days after that, I got the offer in writing.
I believe that in the San Francisco bay area (which has a very high cost of living, except for year round affordable organic produce :) ) starting pay at private schools (apart from Stanford...I don't know anyone who has accepted a job there) hovers in the 60-65 range.
For NYC: NYU and Columbia seem to pay well and offer housing help, but for the most part, the other schools I know of don't pay very well (relative to the cost of living) and don't help with housing either. I have friends making from the mid-40s to the high 50s at mid-range 4-yr institutions in NY. IMHO, mid-range New York schools hope that the draw of the city is enough to make up for mediocre pay.
40s and 50s in NYC? You've got to be kidding! These institutions obviously don't want people who have a family! Forget the draw of the city: you won't be able to feed your kids!
NYU is unique in paying extremely well and also providing ENORMOUS subsidies for housing. I would bet that the housing subsidies add, on average, between 30-45k per year to salaries.
i have been asked for a campus visit to a place that never even requested a writing sample - it is a large public research place in the midwest. i find it a little weird. just wondering if this is common or if someone has a sense of what it means. i wonder if the original candidates all declined, an they are back in the pool of candidates, or if they just did not even have enough applications to merit needing writing samples... haha
The advice on how to handle an offer over the phone is very helpful! Thanks! Any advice on what to say when you still have other interviews lined up(that you are interested in)?
I had posted this above, but let me add some specifics: SLAC in California = $60,000 All moving expenses covered. I negotiated for an additional $2K for research start-up. Perhaps most important for the area, they offered an equity loan of $100K towards the purchase of a home.
Question - what do you think someone should do if they have verbally accepted a position (but not signed anything), and then they get a better offer from their first choice school? Is it unethical to back out of a verbal agreement? Or is it okay, since the first school could just as easily have some "budget crisis" or some other situation that leads to them cutting your position after you accept and before you sign something?
If you look at the CHE forums, there are a variety of opinions on this. I don't think it is ethical to back out of a verbal agreement, but I think it happens. And, ultimately, you need to do what's right for you. But--I don't think I could back out, personally.
Somehow, it seems like the length of time since you accepted the offer matters, too. If you just accepted a day or two ago, that makes a difference; because it is unlikely that their 2nd or 3rd choice people will have accepted other jobs in the meantime. If it's been a long time, though, that gets much shadier.
And, assuming anyone is still reading this blog besides you and me, departments all over are wondering, I wonder if that's our new hire posting that...
and p.s. these shenanigans often reflect very poorly on advisors, who do get flack for their students pulling this stuff. I know of some advisors who are even angry if their students go someplace and leave after 1 year (because of potential injury to their reputations).
In response to the last few posts, I think 5:05/5:07 makes some very good points. However, how long should candidates wait before they start to get antsy when they only have a verbal agreement?
I've heard of people who lost positions after agreeing to them, and then were stuck without anything because they turned other jobs down. Schools can weather the loss of a faculty member more easily than individuals can weather the loss of a salary, right?
While, in general, I don't think it's the most ethical behavior to back out of a position after accepting it a) it's not *illegal* to back out of a verbal contract in these instances and b) it's not *illegal* to back out even after signing the "contract" they initially send you. This form is usually not a contract at all, according to my friends who are lawyers and know about these things.
Again, I don't think backing out is the most ethical choice, but look at the constraints academics have when looking for jobs: too many searchers, too few decent jobs, geographic dislocation, job hunting can only really happen once a year etc. If schools want people to make more informed and solid decisions then we need to change the job search process to allow job seekers to make those sorts of decisions.
Until then I think people backing out after accepting a verbal offer is fair game, given the constraints under which they may have accepted the offer.
I agree with the responses above, although I esp. agree that, as a candidate, you have to look out for your interests first. No one else is going to do this for you-- not the search committees, not even necessarily your advisors.
Even when things are going well on the market (and I had a successful market run this year), you realize that you have so little control over most of this process. And that feeling of having so little power also can be miserable. I often felt like I was a pawn in the hands of search committees that had so much more power and experience than I did, whether they were badgering me with warnings and deadlines or enticing me with compliments. Of course, they were looking after their own interests, too.
But all of this is to say, I've learned you really have to look out for yourself, first and foremost. I know this might sound kind of heartless, but I don't mean it to be. Candidates need to be gracious and we should try our best not to burn bridges, but we don't always have to be the nice guy/gal.
52000 salary 8000 in start up funds 2000 in moving costs 1300 per year in travel ----- one semester of pre-tenure sabbatical 10% of salary in retirement.
About backing out of a verbal offer to accept a job at your first choice school. YES, you should! First jobs are very important for setting your career in the right direction. I would very honestly explain your decision to the school with whom you have the verbal agreement. They may be upset initially, but they will move on. You should be where you think is best for you. As a former search chair, I can assure you that this kind of thing happens and we are used to it.
what are the offer entail from state schools with a 3-3 teaching load? If they give you a small range (50-53K) can you ask for more or rather ask for moving expense, reaserch money and/or start up funds?
Hi everyone, I am deciding between a job at a large state school and one at a SLAC. The state offer is better, but I am concerned about the job disappearing with budget cuts, etc., after I accept it. Is this a reasonable fear and something that can/should be discussed with the Chair? If so, how do you broach it? Thanks for the insight ...
5:43, Do you have any reason to believe that the job will disappear with budget cuts? Was there any indication of this at all during the interview? If not, why the fear?
No rational reason for the fear - just a nervous reaction to having to say "no" to something (after so many "no's" have been said to me) AND a lack of information on state budgets/allocations. Any thoughts?
That happens so incredibly rarely, and I've never heard of it happening after a job has actually been accepted. Whatever has been said about the state of the signed documents as contracts, I'd expect it would be hard for a school to withdraw an offer after the papers have been signed.
And it could happen at a private school too, really. It's not just public schools that have been canceling their searches this year because of hiring freezes.
at USC this year the cancelled the search after selecting their candidate - i am not sure if they actually made the job offer (this is what i heard from a search committee member); Wayne State just cancelled their search after flying out the candidates and doing interviews (this is what I heard from one of the candidates) - at Michigan State in the past few years they have proposed a candidate for a certain position to the dean and the dean rejected the person (who was a senior hire) even tho the department and department chair voted to offer the position to the person (this i heard from about 5 faculty at MSU as i am a candidate for a job there this year) ---- so, it seems these weird things can happen on many levels, and it is not merely funding issues that can cause the cancel of a hire, even after the department has made an official selection
In response to: what are the offer entail from state schools with a 3-3 teaching load? If they give you a small range (50-53K) can you ask for more or rather ask for moving expense, reaserch money and/or start up funds?
February 22, 2008 11:34 AM
make sure they are offering a computer with a decent replacement plan (at least every 4 years); you should always ask for at least a few more in research money, and maybe money for a special program you can lead (i got an extra 3000 from a SLAC for a research colloquim in my area of interest); you can try to ask for summer salary for the first summer or two (if you are on a 9 month payment schedule), and you can try to ask for a course release for each of your first two years
it is absolutely not weird to ask for summer salary in the startup! ask for the moon, but prioritize what you want. and summer salary is completely reasonable, especially if you can back it up with an argument that you need that money to get your research program going (after which you will be bringing in external grants).
Does anyone have any experience negotiating salary in a union environment? I'm wondering if I can negotiate to start higher up the "step" ladder since I have a couple of years of visiting positions rather than at the entry level, and I'd love to hear anyone's experiences with this.
How long should you expect a committee to take to make a decision and offer the job to their first choice? I believe everyone has come through the school where I interviewed, and I don’t know whether to be anxiously waiting for them to make their decision, or to be depressed that they’ve clearly offered it to someone else first.
I think it varies considerably based on the levels of red tape a dept. has to go through, such as deans, HR, etc (I think if you look at older posts on this part of the blog and other sections, there are discussions about length of time...)
From my own experience, of the two offers I got, I was the last candidate for each search, and the first dept. (private school) took 10 days and the second (publis school) took 24 hours. I think the second acted quickly because I had the first offer already. Hope this helps!
If a reasonable amount of time has passed since the school completed interviews and you haven't heard anything, it would probably be fine to email the chair and ask about the status of the search.
Any specifics about the Queens search? The wiki says that 2 positions for the Demography cluster have already been accepted (one senior and one junior). Is that correct? Are they still interviewing? Are they planning on making additional offers?
Regional state university in the MidAtlantic(no grad program in soc but a few MA programs in other depts):
$56,000 $5,000 in startup (to include computer purchase) Also, "Professional Dev't Program" includes $1700 a year for presenting at conferences 4-4 load (3 preps)
This is a union school, and I was able to negotiate starting two "steps" higher up on the payscale based on my prior experience - this constitutes $8,000 more than the initial offer. And I had no other offers with which to bargain.
I wish I could claim I was a hard bargainer, but the Dean was pretty receptive when I asked them to credit my years as a postdoc and VAP in deciding my initial step. It helped that the dept chair let me know what was reasonable to ask for - he's the one that told me to make sure I asked for money for a powerful computer since I use large datasets, rather than just the standard computer all new faculty get. Still, the Dean was very agreeable, and I was pleasantly surprised.
Again, though, the bottom line is that you don't get what you don't ask for.
52000 salary 8000 in start up funds 2000 in moving costs 1300 per year in travel ----- one semester of pre-tenure sabbatical 10% of salary in retirement.
FINAL OFFER AFTER BARGAINING 54000 salary 13000 in start up computer 3500 in moving costs 1300 per year in travel sabbatical and retirment are same 2 summer courses as adjunt for this summer (since i am THAT poor ) worth about 7000
i am not sure if this is an irregular question- i have interviewed at 2 places for africa/migration/diaspora jobs - i am trying to figure out if we are the same 4 candidates who interviewed at both places... i guess i am just curious - how does one find these things out? i got one offer, and am waiting for the second school to reply...
State school in the Northeast after negotiating: $53,000 in salary $1,200 in travel funds $1,000 start-up $1,000 moving expenses new computer 3-3 teaching load with 3 course rotation for first 2 years and double section for first year.
FYI, re: no competing offer. I was still able to get a little bit of movement on a few of the details from the department I am heading to. That to say - don't assume no negotiations simply because you have no competing offer. Sometimes asking nicely with well-reasoned motivations can be as helpful as external leverage.
Not sure how many of us are left with the prospect negotiating job offers for the fall (I'm hopeful in my own situation that I will be in the next week or so), but I just came across this NYTimes op-ed RE women negotiating less than men. Thought it was a good reminder for the women out there (whether for this year or next):
50K - 9 month contract; 3/3 load (same prep each semester, classes capped at 20); 1K yearly travel (easy to get a little bit more); no start-up, fairly easy to apply for and get internal funding; 3K moving costs.
Hello !. You re, I guess , probably very interested to know how one can reach 2000 per day of income . There is no initial capital needed You may start to receive yields with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.
AimTrust is what you thought of all the time AimTrust represents an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.
Its head office is in Panama with structures everywhere: In USA, Canada, Cyprus. Do you want to become a happy investor? That`s your choice That`s what you wish in the long run!
I`m happy and lucky, I started to take up income with the help of this company, and I invite you to do the same. It`s all about how to choose a correct companion utilizes your money in a right way - that`s it!. I take now up to 2G every day, and my first investment was 500 dollars only! It`s easy to start , just click this link http://sunyfaty.servetown.com/ulivexa.html and go! Let`s take this option together to become rich
Hi !. might , perhaps curious to know how one can make real money . There is no initial capital needed You may commense to receive yields with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.
AimTrust is what you need The firm represents an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.
It is based in Panama with offices around the world. Do you want to become a happy investor? That`s your choice That`s what you really need!
I`m happy and lucky, I started to take up real money with the help of this company, and I invite you to do the same. If it gets down to choose a correct companion who uses your funds in a right way - that`s AimTrust!. I earn US$2,000 per day, and my first deposit was 1 grand only! It`s easy to get involved , just click this link http://jycamijon.maddsites.com/sojuku.html and go! Let`s take this option together to become rich
Hi !. You re, I guess , perhaps curious to know how one can collect a huge starting capital . There is no need to invest much at first. You may begin to get income with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.
AimTrust is what you need The company represents an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.
Its head office is in Panama with offices everywhere: In USA, Canada, Cyprus. Do you want to become an affluent person? That`s your chance That`s what you desire!
I feel good, I started to take up real money with the help of this company, and I invite you to do the same. It`s all about how to select a correct companion utilizes your funds in a right way - that`s the AimTrust!. I make 2G daily, and my first investment was 500 dollars only! It`s easy to start , just click this link http://ceqaxowov.easyfreehosting.com/samojoxy.html and go! Let`s take this option together to become rich
Hello !. might , probably very interested to know how one can make real money . There is no need to invest much at first. You may start earning with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.
AimTrust is what you thought of all the time The firm represents an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.
Its head office is in Panama with affiliates around the world. Do you want to become an affluent person? That`s your choice That`s what you really need!
I`m happy and lucky, I began to take up income with the help of this company, and I invite you to do the same. It`s all about how to select a correct companion utilizes your savings in a right way - that`s AimTrust!. I earn US$2,000 per day, and what I started with was a funny sum of 500 bucks! It`s easy to start , just click this link http://igumugore.wtcsites.com/ogawivyf.html and lucky you`re! Let`s take our chance together to feel the smell of real money
Hi! You may probably be very interested to know how one can manage to receive high yields on investments. There is no need to invest much at first. You may commense to get income with a sum that usually goes for daily food, that's 20-100 dollars. I have been participating in one project for several years, and I'll be glad to share my secrets at my blog.
Please visit blog and send me private message to get the info.
Hi! You may probably be very curious to know how one can make real money on investments. There is no initial capital needed. You may commense earning with a money that usually goes on daily food, that's 20-100 dollars. I have been participating in one project for several years, and I'm ready to share my secrets at my blog.
Please visit my pages and send me private message to get the info.
144 comments:
Every time I log in to the blog, I check to make sure the Hires section still has zero comments. Tonight I decided to
1) see what it felt like to post under 'Hires', and
2) break the horrible anticipation that I - and, I figure, you - feel every time we check.
For those who have received offers, congratulations! If you don't mind sharing, how much have you been offered in salary? That way those without offers are in an informed position to negotiate.
65,000
(type of institution and part of the country matters. The second of these is a numbers given in interview, not firm offer.)
SLAC in South - $54K
elite SLAC in Northeast - $67K
Another Southern SLAC: $49,000
Very small SLAC in New England: mid-$50,000s (number given during interview, not offer)
$58,500- Midwestern public research university
so who got the berkeley offer?
2:43,
we don't name names around here. You'll just have to wait until August and check the dept web page like everyone else.
-karl
Dude, if I got the Berkeley job, I'd totally out myself. Just sayin'.
I agree with 5:53. If someone wants to out themselves, so be it!
$65k - East Coast SLAC
I GOT THE BERKELEY JOB!!!!!!
kidding...i've always wondered what it would feel like to say that.
small public school in South $47,000 (offer)
SLAC in rural New England $52,000 (offer)
What's going on in Austin?
6:15, which job?
are they hiring for more than two?
research 1 in southwest--$64,400
SLAC in the Southwest 60k
SLAC in the Northwest 51k
R1 in midwest: $65K
Just wanted to remind people to NEGOTIATE! I had one offer - no competing ones - but still got the school (a mid-tier R1) to give me $3K more in salary, $5K more in start up research funds, and $2K more in moving costs. It never hurts to ask - and I didn't even ask about extra start up money...! Good luck to everyone.
A data point from last year -- mid-range R1, low-ish cost of living area, $58,000 plus $30,000 startup and two-course reduction for first year (1-1 instead of 2-2). Negotiated for a couple thousand more in salary plus a little summer salary for first couple of years.
Wow...re: start up funds, is it common to get $30K? (I have a friend in math who got $100K, but that's math...I didn't think that sociology offered anything more than $10K. Eg, I recently interviewed at a R1 where they were offering only $5K. What's the average research fund package?
re: start up funds.
I don't know what the average is, but the overall package (decent, mid-level R1) for the position I accepted is:
salary: $68,000
start up funds: $25,000
teaching: 2/1 first two yrs, 2/2 thereafter
If more people post this info, hopefully more people will get better packages - and schools won't assume we'll take whatever they offer just because it's a tough market... just a thought. Good luck to everyone!
this is useful information. it would really help if people would indicate whether or not things like summer pay and moving expenses are included in the lump startup sums they list. (sometimes these things are lumped with startup and sometimes not.)
The info just above is quite similar to what I received at a mid-level R1 as well, except my teaching was 1-1 for the first year and then 2-1 thereafter. I got $19K in start-up, $6K in computer equipment, 4/9ths of summer salary (spread over 3 summers), and $10K in moving expenses. Hope this is helpful.
I'm in the process of negotiating an offer and find myself a little weak-kneed at the prospect of a salary! Can anyone help me out? For example, what exactly do start up funds cover? Why would I need more than what I've been offered?
Also, do you work out ALL the monetary stuff before you move on to the non-monetary?
I know it's salary first. Just not sure what to talk about next-- more money or some concerns (like tenure details, additional course release, etc...)
BTW, I'm not negotiating with another offer on the table or grants forthcoming.
Thanks!
Hmm...I'm not sure it is "salary-first." For me, it was course reductions first. In my experience, it is much less likely that they will move much on salary than on other factors. Go ahead and ask for $5K more, but you will be lucky to get it (unless you have a higher offer at a comparable institution). What is most important to you? An extra $2K per year or only teaching one course in your first semester? For me, it was the latter. This is with the usual caveats about "where you start in salary has a huge impact on where you end, given annual raises, etc."
Your start-up has to cover basically every kind of professional and research expense you can think of, for a few years, until you start getting grants and are able to pay for that stuff yourself. Go to three conferences a year? That's $3-$4K right there. Are you a member at three professional associations? That's another $700 or so. How many software packages do you have to purchase? Do you need expensive transcription services? A proof-reader for your manuscript? An RA?
What about starting salaries at one of the smaller Ivy League schools? Can one expect something in the $70k range?
Definitely bargain for course reductions. An extra 3-5K is nice, but you're much more likely to get tenure if you have an extra 20 hours a week to write.
what is in the range of possible things to ask for in terms of course reductions? more than one for the first year? an extra semester of pre-tenure sabbatical? what else is possible?
7:28 - the only person who I have heard of getting a starting salary in the $70k+ range ANYWHERE (but it happened to be at one of the ivies) was someone who was wrapping up an RWJ and was able to negotiate that hu needed something comparable to their $80,000 postdoc salary.
I think $68-$75 or so is perfectly reasonable at elite schools...remember, two years ago someone got $82K (had tons of offers, though). I got above $70 myself.
Please keep in mind that for your basic SLAC, the money and perks vary widely. Schools with higher teaching loads - not your 1/1 or 2/1 cush gigs - cannot give much of a break on teaching. Schools where teaching actually matters may not have much room, if any, for start-up costs, figuring that the candidate's main effort will be --> teaching, not setting the world on fire with research. And finally, friends, if you do get $60 K, plus perks, or more, right out grad school, please remember that you have a great situation and will be earning more than many many profs with 5, 10, 15, or 20 years of experience. Just keep it all in perspective.
In the spirit of "keeping things in perspective," I for one am GLAD that salaries for new assistant professors have increased in recent years. In the "real" world, someone coming out of college with a BA can earn $60K+ off the bat (AND without necessarily having to sell their soul to the corporate devil by being an investment banker!). The truth of the matter is that it is a DISGRACE that professors who have 5+ years experience in some places are making less than $60k! What sociology should be pushing for is parity of pay with other competitive social science fields such as economics, NOT quiet acceptance of a meager salaries. Let's face it, being a sociologist is NOT a wealth-generating occupation. Most of us chose to dedicate our lives/career to sociology for non-monetary ideals (eg, making the world a better place). BUT this doesn't mean that we necessarily need to be paid less than what is deserving. And yes, what is "deserving" is all relative. But dang it, after 6+ years in graduate school, living on a pittance wage, I for one want and demand something more than $60K!
I agree wholeheartedly with 4:04. Market Grizzled makes a great point that we need to be respectful of the wide variation that exists in the nature and types of jobs in our field. Nonetheless, new graduates should be encouraged to at least ask for the higher end of a market-appropriate wage, whether that is 50 or 80. Several of the graduating students in our program have training that is very similar to their counterparts in economics and the starting salary for juniors in that field is often 90-100+.
It never hurts to ask.
I agree with the sentiment that you should ask for a higher salary. I asked for one to meet my cushy post-doc salary (my post doc's at an elite place, but my best offer is not...) They bumped up my offer and through in a couple of other perks b/c they couldn't raise the salary any higher...
oops, stress clearly has addled my brain. The above should say "threw in" not "through in"... :)
So I'm going to make a kind of controversial statement here. I think it's kind of a functionalist view that people who are more educated SHOULD get a better sallary than those who are less (or maybe just an elitist view). I find it funny that sociologist still buy into this view. I don't think that doctors should get paid so much more than construction workers just because they are more educated. I would never have spent my life doing manual labor even if it paid the same as having a PhD because it would have been a much more unpleasant experience. So I don't understand why we should get compensated for having the opportunity to learn and study.
Right...and doctors would spend 8+ years on expensive and exhausting training to earn what a construction worker does?
Well, yah. They do, in quite a few countries.
Hmm. I'm moving other thoughts over to the miscellaneous discussion blog.
Am I the only one who's started compulsively looking at the wiki to see if places I've interviewed at have made an offer to someone else?
8:42,
No, I'm right there with you.
How much are people asking for above the offered salary?
I've never negotiated salary in academia, but I did have quite a bit of corporate experience before graduate school. In business anyway, 10% was the norm and 20% was not unreasonable. I'm not saying everyone got that, but it was reasonable to ask in that range.
One thing that really helped in negotiating was to be able to justify your requests for a higher salary. People who were the most successful in getting a higher salary or extra benefits/perks were the people who wrote a good letter outlining why they felt they deserved those things ("I want more money" isn't very compelling!).
If you have grants or can make the case that you'll get some, explain that you'll be bringing money in so a higher salary is justified. If you have a specialized research program that requires more start-up funding, emphasize the return on that funding. Remember that this is a MARKET and the product is the research you will produce. The department is deciding how much to invest in you, the entity that will produce the product. The better a product you can convince the you will produce, the more likely they are to want to invest more. The key is that you have to make a good pitch as to why they should invest more in you.
If you google search, you can find some very good examples of negotiation letters. And keep in mind, the worst thing is that they will say no and the original offer will stand. I once went through a prolonged salary negotiation process only to find at the end that the salary was determined by some HR formula and the hiring manager couldn't offer me more even though she wanted to. However, the offer still stood and no one thought less of me for having lobbied hard for more pay.
Just wanted to chime in here...
>The truth of the matter is that it >is a DISGRACE that professors who >have 5+ years experience in some >places are making less than $60k!
It's a disgrace but it's the truth. I'm at an SLAC where, after 7 years and a teaching award, I'm *still* under 60K. (This is standard for the humanities, social sciences, education, social work, and many other non-business disciplines at our university and almost all other SLAC that I know. The salaries suggested here seem *very* high to me and reflect differences in research and teaching schools.)
Do your best to negotiate at the outset as you'll have virtually no ability to do this after you arrive --unless you prove valuable *and* have another offer on the table.
FYI - our monetary offer was fairly rigid. The budget is what the budget is. We had some wiggle room on moving expenses--offering nothing to offering 1K.
We expect our new hire to do 4/4 load although we let them hold off on advising and service the first year.
That may sound bleak but I'd like to think that we make up for the low salary by offering a very strong sense of community with no backstabbing that I've seen, creative opportunities in classes/service/etc, a broad model of scholarship, and an engaged and dynamic student body. Plus, our cost of living is pretty reasonable here.
SLACs aren't where the money is but it's a better life than most.
Good luck, everyone!
Southern SLAC (offer)
54k
2k moving
1.4k travel/conf
SLAC New England (rural with low cost of living) $52,000 and $4,000 start up.
NE mid-tier R-1, low cost of living area
$60K
$4K moving
$3.5K research start up
2-1 teaching the first year
and an AWESOME 2 year post-doc for my academic spouse
The non-elite public schools seem to have more constraints on what they can do for your salary. Or at least I fell for that. The wealthy private schools are the ones that have $30k~ for research start up. I had a such an offer, with $65K starting (I didn't try to negotiate higher b/c I turned it down for a better school).
Northeast- mid range R1 (relatively low-cost of living area)
$65,000
$10,000 start up (research and travel)
$3500 moving (based on where I'm moving from)
2:1 teaching first year
What should qualitative sociologists ask for in terms of "start up" funds?
Coding software,
transcription related stuff,
what else?
9:36 --
also maybe summer research funding (salary, travel, and other research expenses)
possibly funding for RAs
possibly training for you or your RAs
books
journal subscriptions
conference travel
conference membership fees
For qualitative research-- if you plan to write a book, it might be helpful to have an RA to assist with the book preparations, like fact checking, etc.
This goes for anyone-- you may want to ask for summer salary for summer 2008, to make that transition easier. Also, I found it was easier to get more research funds when I could list specific things I needed it for.
I have to say that I am impressed by the non-SLAC market and by your commitment & ability viz. negotiating. I had a post-doc, a teaching award, and lots of full-time teaching experience after my degree, and I just broke $50K. As the other underpaid poster noted, the intangible benefits - a collegial department, a good gig, a nice place to live, and at least in my case - some fantastic students - can somewhat make up for the salary gap. What is harder to stomach is the apparent reality that though I can and do work upwards of 70 hours some weeks, my labor will certainly never be valued the way an R-1 prof's is. Yes, I am a sociologist, and yes, I have the ability to be analytical about this. But the socked in the gut feeling, knowing that being primarily focused on teaching is so devalued, is about a feeling, -not- an objective analysis of the actual 'worth' of my labor vs. the 'worth' of the labor of someone whose main contribution is journal articles and maybe some grants. We have a great and weird and sad and wonderful industry here.
California regional public university:
$62K
$3000 moving
$1000 startup
$3000 summer
3-3 teaching
Anyone have info on the Cal State Long Beach Community Research job?
re: 10:28- according to the wiki, they have made an offer to somebody.
I accepted the following for a decent, mid-level R1:
salary: $65,000
start up funds: $29,500 + moving expenses + a new computer
teaching: 2/1 first two yrs, 2/2 thereafter
How are we defining "mid-level"? Are these places that are 20-50 in the US News Rankings? Just about everyone keeps using the term "mid-level"- makes me wonder how people are defining it.
On another note, does anyone know what to expect for salary from a state school in the mid-Atlantic region?
southern slac
56k
2k moving
laptop
1.2k conf travel/yr
3k startup
2/2 first yr, 2/3 thereafter
small R1 in urban NE
$65,000 salary
$20,000 startup
$1,500 computer
+ moving expenses
+ one month summer salary for first yr
+ one year pre-tenure sabbatical
+ $1000 annual research funds
+ 2/1 courseload first yr, then 2/2
i used "mid-level" to refer to a place ranking in the 20s. i would read it to mean rank 20-50 or so?
I used mid-level to refer to a place in the 30s.
Caveat: I don't mean to criticize that use of mid-level. As someone who comes from a recognized top-tier program I tend toward that use as well. At the same time, it's worth noting that this use really does come from a place of privilege. I think the number of North American PhD sociology programs is around 140. In what way does it make sense to call a #20-ranked program only "mid-level"? Reviewing the latest (limited, yes) USNews rankings, I don't really think of Yale, NYU, or UC-Irvine (all programs ranked in the 20s) as "mid-level."
I really do, incidentally, mean my question--what are the sorts of things that make people think of a program as "mid-level"? But maybe that's for the misc thread, not this one.
I agree with the last poster. What makes someone consider something mid-level? Plus, is there a way we can be more specific about offers. For instance, in addition to saying the level of the R1, or R2, or SLAC, can we also say whether its state or private, how large, rural vs. urban, region?
I think the key is that the original poster was referring to a "mid-level R1", not just a mid-level school. So I think calling 20-40 or so midlevel is reasonable, assuming the top 60 or so PhD programs are all R1s (and there probably aren't that many R1s).
Arent just about all PhD sociology programs R1s? There are additional R1s that are not PhD granting departments, but I thought almost all of the schools with PhD granting soc. departments were R1s.
Research I university was a category used by the Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education to indicate those universities in the United States which received the highest amounts of Federal science research funding.
The Carnegie Foundation has updated this terminology noting:
Doctorate-granting Universities. With this edition, doctorate-granting institutions are once again differentiated based on an explicit measure of research activity. We now use a multi-measure index rather than the single measure of federal funding used in previous editions [...] Using the new methodology, we have identified three categories of doctorate-granting institutions. Because of these changes, the new categories are not comparable to those previously used (Research I & II and Doctoral I & II; and Doctoral/Research—Extensive and Intensive)
Doctorate-granting Universities. Includes institutions that award at least 20 doctoral degrees per year (excluding doctoral-level degrees that qualify recipients for entry into professional practice, such as the JD, MD, PharmD, DPT, etc.). Excludes Special Focus Institutions and Tribal Colleges.
RU/VH: Research Universities (very high research activity)
RU/H: Research Universities (high research activity)
DRU: Doctoral/Research Universities
Can more people please post about the offers they accepted (salary, research support, start-up, moving expenses, etc.)
Offer accepted from SLAC:
$54K salary
$3000 moving
$6000 start-up
7:59- what region is the SLAC please?
This is 7:59 again - the SLAC is in the South.
Do SLACs offer summer salaries? If so, this is based on summer teaching which many don't offer, right?
At least some SLACs offer a year or two of summer funding as part of the start-up package, and more have internal competitive grants for the summers, with the idea that you'd use one to help you do research or develop a new course.
Depends on the SLAC, I'm sure, but for the most part, "summer salary" means the same as at research schools: extra money in the first couple of years that is supposed to support research time. I turned down summer salary and negotiated a higher base salary. Other schools did mention that one could teach during the summer for extra "overload" pay, but that's not something I've ever heard of anyone negotiating for in an offer.
New England SLAC
-$54,000
-up to $5,000 in moving expenses
-$1,000 travel annually
-no start-up package, but pay actual cost of necessary software and other research expenses
California (CSU branch):
$56,500 salary
moving expenses - all covered
$2500 - per year for prof development
course reduction - 1 in each of the first 2 years
Does anyone have any information on whether the Cal State Long Beach Community-Based Research job has been accepted?
I've been reading with interest the information about offers and the advice about negotiating. I'm not totally clear on the logistics. Do people usually receive offers by phone? If so, do you have to be ready to negotiate - also by phone - right then and there? I've heard that it often takes a while for paper offers to appear, so I'm assuming that's not the first notice we receive....
12:44,
When you get an offer, you will almost definitely hear first by phone. Normally, people ask for some time to think it over (usually you're given around a week--but that window narrows the later we get in the hiring season). If you decide to accept, a written offer will follow (either by fax or mail). Negotiation over salary, startup packages, etc. comes after you've received the written offer.
I got an offer over the phone. I asked for two weeks to decide.
First, I got them to email me the terms of the offer. Then, we set up a time to talk on the phone. On the phone, we negotiated slightly higher amounts. The chair then talked to the Dean to get the new offer approved. THEN they sent me a contract in the mail.
My suggestion, when you answer the phone the first time, say something like, "I'm so excited, that is such great news. Can you tell me the terms of the offer?.... Okay, could you send me an email outlining those? Great. Can I have some time to talk to my advisor and family about this? Two weeks? Great. Okay, can we set up a time next week to discuss the specifics of the offer? Perfect."
If they press you to negotiate right then and there, just stall and say: "I'm not prepared to discuss specific numbers right now, I'd like to talk to my advisor/family first."
Also, you can tell them you want to visit the area one more time. They paid my expenses for a day.
hope this helps,
karl
CPL says it right. If you do what 1:03 suggests, you will accept an offer and then try to negotiate. Doesn't work that way.
The best thing you can do is when you receive the verbal offer, write down all the terms, say, "I'm thrilled, but I need to sit down and look this over / talk with my adviser / talk to the other school I've just interviewed at." If they haven't mentioned anything like start-up funds, you might ask them whether they have any plans for that. Then call them back to negotiate, after you've figured out your rationale for asking for more.
Once you've negotiated, settled on a deal, and verbally accepted, they will send you a written offer. It's nearly impossible to change your deal at this point unless you just got a better offer from somewhere else that you're willing to take instead.
Whoops, I meant karl, not cpl. I'm getting my pseudonyms confused!
Can't reiterate this point enough--do NOT accept right away! All you have to say is what Karl and other guy said. "Thanks so much, this is good news, I need to discuss the terms with my advisor."
I don't think the prior poster was advocating accepting right away--but it does happen in the excitement of the moment.
No, don't accept right away... and don't ask them to send you a contract right away. The contract has to go through a lot of stages of approval, once it is written, it's hard to get it re-written. That is why I asked for an email with the initial terms. That way, I had a "written" record of the offer (although probably not legally enforceable) yet nothing was set until after the phone call negotiation.
I admit this was confusing to me at the time. I spend a lot of time on the CHE forums and they always say get something in writing before you do any negotiating. Maybe that is how it works in other disciplines, or maybe I misunderstood. But I prefer to keep the written records down to a minimum at first to ensure flexibility during negotiation.
-karl
Karl is right. It is MUCH easier to change the terms before it has been approved by the dean, provost, etc. And that is usually before it is all in writing. An email is a good idea, although I just wrote down the offer, talked it over with my advisors, and then negotiated with the chair the next day. A few days after that, I got the offer in writing.
What salary can one expect from a mid-range private institution in an extremely high cost of living area?
I believe that in the San Francisco bay area (which has a very high cost of living, except for year round affordable organic produce :) ) starting pay at private schools (apart from Stanford...I don't know anyone who has accepted a job there) hovers in the 60-65 range.
For NYC: NYU and Columbia seem to pay well and offer housing help, but for the most part, the other schools I know of don't pay very well (relative to the cost of living) and don't help with housing either. I have friends making from the mid-40s to the high 50s at mid-range 4-yr institutions in NY. IMHO, mid-range New York schools hope that the draw of the city is enough to make up for mediocre pay.
40s and 50s in NYC? You've got to be kidding! These institutions obviously don't want people who have a family! Forget the draw of the city: you won't be able to feed your kids!
NYU is unique in paying extremely well and also providing ENORMOUS subsidies for housing. I would bet that the housing subsidies add, on average, between 30-45k per year to salaries.
Thanks to all of you who provided info on the process of negotiation. I feel a bit more prepared now.
i have been asked for a campus visit to a place that never even requested a writing sample - it is a large public research place in the midwest. i find it a little weird. just wondering if this is common or if someone has a sense of what it means. i wonder if the original candidates all declined, an they are back in the pool of candidates, or if they just did not even have enough applications to merit needing writing samples... haha
The advice on how to handle an offer over the phone is very helpful! Thanks! Any advice on what to say when you still have other interviews lined up(that you are interested in)?
Can people please continue to post what type of offers they received? Thanks.
public university in the southeast-beautiful area to live
3-3 teaching load
low $50,000s
low start-up package
Feb 12th at 7.43 pm
how low as was the startup package and did they pay for your moving expenses or was that included in the start-up?
7:28
No relocation reimbursement
$2,500 start-up (in addition to whatever software I needed)
I had posted this above, but let me add some specifics:
SLAC in California = $60,000
All moving expenses covered.
I negotiated for an additional $2K for research start-up.
Perhaps most important for the area, they offered an equity loan of $100K towards the purchase of a home.
~Benny
SLAC in the Southwest: 60k salary, 8k startup, 7k moving.
Question - what do you think someone should do if they have verbally accepted a position (but not signed anything), and then they get a better offer from their first choice school? Is it unethical to back out of a verbal agreement? Or is it okay, since the first school could just as easily have some "budget crisis" or some other situation that leads to them cutting your position after you accept and before you sign something?
If you look at the CHE forums, there are a variety of opinions on this. I don't think it is ethical to back out of a verbal agreement, but I think it happens. And, ultimately, you need to do what's right for you. But--I don't think I could back out, personally.
Somehow, it seems like the length of time since you accepted the offer matters, too. If you just accepted a day or two ago, that makes a difference; because it is unlikely that their 2nd or 3rd choice people will have accepted other jobs in the meantime. If it's been a long time, though, that gets much shadier.
And, assuming anyone is still reading this blog besides you and me, departments all over are wondering, I wonder if that's our new hire posting that...
and p.s. these shenanigans often reflect very poorly on advisors, who do get flack for their students pulling this stuff. I know of some advisors who are even angry if their students go someplace and leave after 1 year (because of potential injury to their reputations).
In response to the last few posts, I think 5:05/5:07 makes some very good points. However, how long should candidates wait before they start to get antsy when they only have a verbal agreement?
I've heard of people who lost positions after agreeing to them, and then were stuck without anything because they turned other jobs down. Schools can weather the loss of a faculty member more easily than individuals can weather the loss of a salary, right?
While, in general, I don't think it's the most ethical behavior to back out of a position after accepting it a) it's not *illegal* to back out of a verbal contract in these instances and b) it's not *illegal* to back out even after signing the "contract" they initially send you. This form is usually not a contract at all, according to my friends who are lawyers and know about these things.
Again, I don't think backing out is the most ethical choice, but look at the constraints academics have when looking for jobs: too many searchers, too few decent jobs, geographic dislocation, job hunting can only really happen once a year etc. If schools want people to make more informed and solid decisions then we need to change the job search process to allow job seekers to make those sorts of decisions.
Until then I think people backing out after accepting a verbal offer is fair game, given the constraints under which they may have accepted the offer.
I agree with the responses above, although I esp. agree that, as a candidate, you have to look out for your interests first. No one else is going to do this for you-- not the search committees, not even necessarily your advisors.
Even when things are going well on the market (and I had a successful market run this year), you realize that you have so little control over most of this process. And that feeling of having so little power also can be miserable. I often felt like I was a pawn in the hands of search committees that had so much more power and experience than I did, whether they were badgering me with warnings and deadlines or enticing me with compliments. Of course, they were looking after their own interests, too.
But all of this is to say, I've learned you really have to look out for yourself, first and foremost. I know this might sound kind of heartless, but I don't mean it to be. Candidates need to be gracious and we should try our best not to burn bridges, but we don't always have to be the nice guy/gal.
SLAC Northwest
52000 salary
8000 in start up funds
2000 in moving costs
1300 per year in travel
-----
one semester of pre-tenure sabbatical
10% of salary in retirement.
About backing out of a verbal offer to accept a job at your first choice school. YES, you should! First jobs are very important for setting your career in the right direction. I would very honestly explain your decision to the school with whom you have the verbal agreement. They may be upset initially, but they will move on. You should be where you think is best for you. As a former search chair, I can assure you that this kind of thing happens and we are used to it.
what are the offer entail from state schools with a 3-3 teaching load? If they give you a small range (50-53K) can you ask for more or rather ask for moving expense, reaserch money and/or start up funds?
Hi everyone,
I am deciding between a job at a large state school and one at a SLAC. The state offer is better, but I am concerned about the job disappearing with budget cuts, etc., after I accept it. Is this a reasonable fear and something that can/should be discussed with the Chair? If so, how do you broach it?
Thanks for the insight ...
5:43, Do you have any reason to believe that the job will disappear with budget cuts? Was there any indication of this at all during the interview? If not, why the fear?
No rational reason for the fear - just a nervous reaction to having to say "no" to something (after so many "no's" have been said to me) AND a lack of information on state budgets/allocations. Any thoughts?
That happens so incredibly rarely, and I've never heard of it happening after a job has actually been accepted. Whatever has been said about the state of the signed documents as contracts, I'd expect it would be hard for a school to withdraw an offer after the papers have been signed.
And it could happen at a private school too, really. It's not just public schools that have been canceling their searches this year because of hiring freezes.
at USC this year the cancelled the search after selecting their candidate - i am not sure if they actually made the job offer (this is what i heard from a search committee member); Wayne State just cancelled their search after flying out the candidates and doing interviews (this is what I heard from one of the candidates) - at Michigan State in the past few years they have proposed a candidate for a certain position to the dean and the dean rejected the person (who was a senior hire) even tho the department and department chair voted to offer the position to the person (this i heard from about 5 faculty at MSU as i am a candidate for a job there this year) ---- so, it seems these weird things can happen on many levels, and it is not merely funding issues that can cause the cancel of a hire, even after the department has made an official selection
In response to:
what are the offer entail from state schools with a 3-3 teaching load? If they give you a small range (50-53K) can you ask for more or rather ask for moving expense, reaserch money and/or start up funds?
February 22, 2008 11:34 AM
make sure they are offering a computer with a decent replacement plan (at least every 4 years); you should always ask for at least a few more in research money, and maybe money for a special program you can lead (i got an extra 3000 from a SLAC for a research colloquim in my area of interest); you can try to ask for summer salary for the first summer or two (if you are on a 9 month payment schedule), and you can try to ask for a course release for each of your first two years
the berkeley offer has been accepted...
Does it sound weird to ask for three months summer salary as an item included in start up?
it is absolutely not weird to ask for summer salary in the startup! ask for the moon, but prioritize what you want. and summer salary is completely reasonable, especially if you can back it up with an argument that you need that money to get your research program going (after which you will be bringing in external grants).
Does anyone have any experience negotiating salary in a union environment? I'm wondering if I can negotiate to start higher up the "step" ladder since I have a couple of years of visiting positions rather than at the entry level, and I'd love to hear anyone's experiences with this.
How long should you expect a committee to take to make a decision and offer the job to their first choice? I believe everyone has come through the school where I interviewed, and I don’t know whether to be anxiously waiting for them to make their decision, or to be depressed that they’ve clearly offered it to someone else first.
re: 9:23
I think it varies considerably based on the levels of red tape a dept. has to go through, such as deans, HR, etc (I think if you look at older posts on this part of the blog and other sections, there are discussions about length of time...)
From my own experience, of the two offers I got, I was the last candidate for each search, and the first dept. (private school) took 10 days and the second (publis school) took 24 hours. I think the second acted quickly because I had the first offer already. Hope this helps!
re 9:23
If a reasonable amount of time has passed since the school completed interviews and you haven't heard anything, it would probably be fine to email the chair and ask about the status of the search.
Any specifics about the Queens search? The wiki says that 2 positions for the Demography cluster have already been accepted (one senior and one junior). Is that correct? Are they still interviewing? Are they planning on making additional offers?
My understanding is that Queens will make an additional offer (at least one).
Regional state university in the MidAtlantic(no grad program in soc but a few MA programs in other depts):
$56,000
$5,000 in startup (to include computer purchase)
Also, "Professional Dev't Program" includes $1700 a year for presenting at conferences
4-4 load (3 preps)
This is a union school, and I was able to negotiate starting two "steps" higher up on the payscale based on my prior experience - this constitutes $8,000 more than the initial offer. And I had no other offers with which to bargain.
Wow! I want to learn how to bargain like you do.
5:42 here,
I wish I could claim I was a hard bargainer, but the Dean was pretty receptive when I asked them to credit my years as a postdoc and VAP in deciding my initial step. It helped that the dept chair let me know what was reasonable to ask for - he's the one that told me to make sure I asked for money for a powerful computer since I use large datasets, rather than just the standard computer all new faculty get. Still, the Dean was very agreeable, and I was pleasantly surprised.
Again, though, the bottom line is that you don't get what you don't ask for.
ORIGINAL OFFER
SLAC Northwest
52000 salary
8000 in start up funds
2000 in moving costs
1300 per year in travel
-----
one semester of pre-tenure sabbatical
10% of salary in retirement.
FINAL OFFER AFTER BARGAINING
54000 salary
13000 in start up
computer
3500 in moving costs
1300 per year in travel
sabbatical and retirment are same
2 summer courses as adjunt for this summer (since i am THAT poor ) worth about 7000
i am not sure if this is an irregular question- i have interviewed at 2 places for africa/migration/diaspora jobs - i am trying to figure out if we are the same 4 candidates who interviewed at both places... i guess i am just curious - how does one find these things out? i got one offer, and am waiting for the second school to reply...
State school in the Northeast after negotiating:
$53,000 in salary
$1,200 in travel funds
$1,000 start-up
$1,000 moving expenses
new computer
3-3 teaching load with 3 course rotation for first 2 years and double section for first year.
Mid-Level R1
69k salary
25k startup
5k moving
3/9 summer salary first two years
1 course reduction first two years, 2/2 thereafter
Computer
What region of the country is that Mid-Level R1 (9:39am)?
Also, 9:39--was that a new assistant position (seems higher than usual)? Did you have a competing offer? Congrats!
RE: 9:39 am. High cost of living area in the West. Had a lower competing offer so I was unable to negotiate with it.
FYI, re: no competing offer. I was still able to get a little bit of movement on a few of the details from the department I am heading to. That to say - don't assume no negotiations simply because you have no competing offer. Sometimes asking nicely with well-reasoned motivations can be as helpful as external leverage.
Not sure how many of us are left with the prospect negotiating job offers for the fall (I'm hopeful in my own situation that I will be in the next week or so), but I just came across this NYTimes op-ed RE women negotiating less than men. Thought it was a good reminder for the women out there (whether for this year or next):
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html?scp=1&sq=women+don%27t+ask&st=nyt
slac-southwest, pre-negotiation:
Renewable 3 year contract:
50K - 9 month contract;
3/3 load (same prep each semester, classes capped at 20);
1K yearly travel (easy to get a little bit more);
no start-up, fairly easy to apply for and get internal funding;
3K moving costs.
We'll see what happens after negotiations.
Hello !.
You re, I guess , probably very interested to know how one can reach 2000 per day of income .
There is no initial capital needed You may start to receive yields with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.
AimTrust is what you thought of all the time
AimTrust represents an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.
Its head office is in Panama with structures everywhere: In USA, Canada, Cyprus.
Do you want to become a happy investor?
That`s your choice That`s what you wish in the long run!
I`m happy and lucky, I started to take up income with the help of this company,
and I invite you to do the same. It`s all about how to choose a correct companion utilizes your money in a right way - that`s it!.
I take now up to 2G every day, and my first investment was 500 dollars only!
It`s easy to start , just click this link http://sunyfaty.servetown.com/ulivexa.html
and go! Let`s take this option together to become rich
Hi !.
might , perhaps curious to know how one can make real money .
There is no initial capital needed You may commense to receive yields with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.
AimTrust is what you need
The firm represents an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.
It is based in Panama with offices around the world.
Do you want to become a happy investor?
That`s your choice That`s what you really need!
I`m happy and lucky, I started to take up real money with the help of this company,
and I invite you to do the same. If it gets down to choose a correct companion who uses your funds in a right way - that`s AimTrust!.
I earn US$2,000 per day, and my first deposit was 1 grand only!
It`s easy to get involved , just click this link http://jycamijon.maddsites.com/sojuku.html
and go! Let`s take this option together to become rich
Hi !.
You re, I guess , perhaps curious to know how one can collect a huge starting capital .
There is no need to invest much at first. You may begin to get income with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.
AimTrust is what you need
The company represents an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.
Its head office is in Panama with offices everywhere: In USA, Canada, Cyprus.
Do you want to become an affluent person?
That`s your chance That`s what you desire!
I feel good, I started to take up real money with the help of this company,
and I invite you to do the same. It`s all about how to select a correct companion utilizes your funds in a right way - that`s the AimTrust!.
I make 2G daily, and my first investment was 500 dollars only!
It`s easy to start , just click this link http://ceqaxowov.easyfreehosting.com/samojoxy.html
and go! Let`s take this option together to become rich
Hello !.
might , probably very interested to know how one can make real money .
There is no need to invest much at first. You may start earning with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.
AimTrust is what you thought of all the time
The firm represents an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.
Its head office is in Panama with affiliates around the world.
Do you want to become an affluent person?
That`s your choice That`s what you really need!
I`m happy and lucky, I began to take up income with the help of this company,
and I invite you to do the same. It`s all about how to select a correct companion utilizes your savings in a right way - that`s AimTrust!.
I earn US$2,000 per day, and what I started with was a funny sum of 500 bucks!
It`s easy to start , just click this link http://igumugore.wtcsites.com/ogawivyf.html
and lucky you`re! Let`s take our chance together to feel the smell of real money
Hi!
You may probably be very interested to know how one can manage to receive high yields on investments.
There is no need to invest much at first.
You may commense to get income with a sum that usually goes
for daily food, that's 20-100 dollars.
I have been participating in one project for several years,
and I'll be glad to share my secrets at my blog.
Please visit blog and send me private message to get the info.
P.S. I make 1000-2000 per day now.
[url=http://theblogmoney.com] Online investment blog[/url]
Hi!
You may probably be very curious to know how one can make real money on investments.
There is no initial capital needed.
You may commense earning with a money that usually goes
on daily food, that's 20-100 dollars.
I have been participating in one project for several years,
and I'm ready to share my secrets at my blog.
Please visit my pages and send me private message to get the info.
P.S. I earn 1000-2000 per daily now.
[url=http://theinvestblog.com] Online investment blog[/url]
Post a Comment