I agree with 6:42. Top schools will hold it against you ("you're not really interested in us, you just want to live in X"). Lower-ranked schools (especially those in areas that are not desired by everyone else) may like that you have interest or roots in the area. But, I don't think it will help if the geographical area is generally urban or desirable. Schools in New York or Boston or Chicago don't care about a geographic draw - they know that people want to live there to solve the two-body problem. If, however, you're dying to be in Nebraska or West Texas, I'd mention it.
At ANY type of school, I think it's a bit unprofessional to mention a spouse/partner in your cover letter. I think the most I would say is that I have personal or family reasons for being especially interested in the geographic area.
I'd add one exception...if you already have a job, but are moving because of geography, you might mention it. Otherwise the committee will wonder why you are leaving. They'll probably assume it is because you had to leave. That's not a good thought to have running through search members' heads.
i originally asked about geographical limits on the job search. thanks for the great advice. i didn't say anything specific in my cover letter, but i'm wondering also about a strategy more broadly. are people considering jobs at all different kinds of schools? what if you want to be at a research school, should you take a job at a low-resource state school and hope that you can move later to a research school? does this generally work or is it too risky? is it better to stay in grad school until you get "the" job you want?
I don't want to be depressing about it, but if you want to be geographically picky, you have to be less picky about other things (like type of school, teaching load). You may have to take a job with a 4-4 load, and then you'll still be lucky to have found something in that place. Moving up to a better school will be hard, and may not ever happen. But in this line of work, we usually have to sacrifice either geography or institution.
11:28...simple...go to the department's webpage and look at their course listings for the semester. Count how many courses are assigned to each faculty. It may vary if someone is the chair that year or if someone negotiated to teach one less course during their first year. But for the most part, you should get a good idea that way.
Ugh. Since this is the non-serious thread, I'll take the opportunity to vent. This job market is unfair and irrational. Sorry to state the obvious. But posting that message somehow feels a smidgeon better.
I've done everything you're supposed to do to get a good job (including a sole-authored publication in one of the big three journals), and still nothing. It's making me crazy, trying to figure out why this isn't working. It's like I've got academic cooties.
I understand. I've got a sole-authored article in a top 10 journal and another in a top 5 journal, several good working papers, won several really prestigous awards, presented every year in all the major conferences, come from a top 10 department, have good letters from good professors. I have also heard nothing.
I was upset for awhile but then I realized that things are still early. I don't know what I was expecting but we are all in it for the long haul. Hang in there. Eventually we will find something.
keep in mind that looking at class schedules might be less reliable for top departments where faculty can buy out of classes. we have some professors who have not taught an undergraduate class in years, but new faculty get a 2-2 load unless they land grant money to buy out.
Its nice to know that even the people who should be considered *stars* are not getting calls either. I have a VERY strong feeling that we are competing against current Asst. Profs and people with post-docs. Either that, or the same 5-6 people are interviewing EVERYWHERE!
I can tell you that only 2/10 people on our shortlist were ABDs (we're an R1). Now, we have a particular interest in hiring at the 'senior junior' level--so don't take that as gospel everywhere. But, several people on the SC commented that they had never seen so many non-ABDs in the application pile. In fact, we had several applications from people with tenure. Maybe this is just a year when people are looking to move, for some reason.
This honestly is not meant to be discouraging--just informative. As has been discussed here before, many schools like to snag ABDs fresh out of grad school.
Based on your experience, can you tell us, in very generic terms, what the cv's of the people who end up getting called look like? For instance, do these assistant prof's need to have a sole-authored AJS/ASR/SF? A book contract? About how many journal articles? Do you interview people who didn't go to a top 20 department? Just how high is the bar?
For me, the saddest thing about these boards is witnessing people realizing for the first time that there simply are not enough academic jobs to go around... not even for all of the people who would be a very good fit with many of the posted positions. not even for all of the people who did everything you're supposed to do to get a job. There are simply too many of us.
What does it mean when people say that things are just getting started? Half of my application list has already made progress according to the wiki. :-(
12:17 here. I have to be really vague, I'm afraid, so I won't discuss what the people we're interviewing look like.
But to get on our shortlist as an asst. prof, 9/10 were from a top 15 department. Several had 2-3 books. Those that were article-types had either 1 sole-authored in a top 3 journal plus several others; or many in lower-tier journals (like, 8-10).
Again, we were hoping to find a 'senior junior' person. The people on our long shortlist who were ABD tended to have 1 sole-authored piece in ASR/AJS/SF, fantastic rec letters, and several articles in the pipeline. We did have candidates who met those criteria who were not on the list--and that just had to do with departmental fit. We also eliminated some from our informal discussions at ASA. I think all the ABDs on our list were from top-15 schools.
What's sadder for me is that our mentors and peers confidently assert that there is a formula for getting a job. (We all know what that looks like.) But it's not true. The formula is unreliable, which means that the label of "formula" is inaccurate.
I can take the idea that some people won't get jobs. But it's harder to take the idea that people who are "supposed to" get jobs won't.
I wonder if 12:17 would share any general observations on things that led to ASA discussions serving to eliminate candidates. Based on the interest in me at ASA (a lot) vs. the interest in me now (absolutely none), I think that may have happened to me. I'm thinking about what I might do differently next year if it comes to that.
12:17 again. This is so much more interesting than working on my class prep.
One thing about informal ASA conversations (I'm not talking about the 'meet market' employment service) is that departments are probably talking to a ton of people. I know we talked to at least 12. So I wouldn't despair if none of those conversations has yet turned into anything.
Again, I can't be too specific--but generally, if we felt people 'weren't that into us', we crossed them off the list. We don't want to waste our time on someone who thinks of us as a 4th or 5th choice. You'd be surprised what some candidates will say to SC members! I wish I could post specific comments but that might get me in trouble. And I do wonder if those who seemed 'not that into us' would change their tune now that things have started moving (if they are not getting called by places they thought they would).
And it's totally subjective--sometimes someone would just rub a SC member the wrong way and that would kill their application. It sucks, but seriously, we have to have some way to weed people out. And we will have to live with new hires for a long time!
I guess I would say, if a place expresses interest in you and wants to meet with you at ASA, be as charming and interested in their job as possible. Again, this seems elementary, but apparently, it's not.
To follow up on 12:42's comments, I was just asking someone in my department about this, and he said that this is what they are seeing this year with applicants too. He said their top pick right now is an Asst. Prof at another college (been out for three years), and has some top pubs. My school is a top 25. We are not just competing with ABDs like the old days...
We should keep in mind that if Asst Profs are changing schools, many of the schools that they leave behind may be hiring replacements in the Spring or next year on the market, so it does seem to balance out to some degree.
The Asst Prof thing is really interesting. I wonder if as the market has gotten increasingly tighter (which began several years ago, as I understand it), people have become increasingly willing to accept less desirable positions and actually *plan* to leave before tenure?
I recently read Harvard's 'Top Academic Workplaces' Report. A great way to 'pass the time'. It lists the top places to work for junior faculty! (link on two lines)
I'm curious (and bored of writing my dissertation!) - what are your dream jobs and why? Are we all gunning for the same schools or do we all want different things?
i want to live in a city near my family, get paid enough to afford a mortgage, and be able to research slightly 2/3 of the time and teach only 1/3 of the time.
i know, i'm crazy, but that would be my dream job (don't care about dept rank all that much)
I would love to work at a good liberal arts college somewhere in the North East. Unlike everyone else (it would seem) I really don't mind teaching, so a 2/3rd teaching 1/3 research schedule would suit me. Oh yeah, and a decent salary wouldn't go amiss either.
I want to be at a SLAC (where the S stands for selective). I love the sense of community and collegiality that comes with those types of institutions, but it's also important that I'll still have research support. I'd like to be back in California, but otherwise, anywhere within a reasonable distance from an urban center is great.
what I dream of: the small class sizes and close relationships with students of a liberal arts college, enough time to still do some research and writing (maybe 1/3 of my time), and life in a city and/or near some mountains.
I'd like a job near the southeast coast at a mid-level research institution. I prefer a 2-2 or 2-3 teaching load at most. I'd like to be at a university with a research center where I can pursue cross-disciplinary work.
this is fun! my ideal is a small, liberal, midwestern college town in the middle of nowhere. in my dream world, no teaching at all...100% research. oh, and i want to be able to be myself, not feel competitive with my colleagues, and sometimes hang out and play poker with them. any search committees out there with a weakness for texas hold 'em?
6:22, you need a postdoc! Preferably one of the RWJ ones--so you can pull in the big bucks and still live the life you described...albeit just for 2 years...
I want a job at NYU or Columbia b/c I want to live in NYC. They have amazing housing subsidies and that's the only way I could afford to live in that city!
I want a job in a department that supports a doctoral program. I don't care about departmental rankings. I want to have a 2/2 or 2/3 teaching load. I want to work with graduate students - better yet, I want to have a good sized grant so I can support some graduate students. I want to work with colleagues who are decent and not too disciplinarily-myopic.
I want to live in large enough town so that my partner's career doesn't go down the toilet.
I want to have access to good child care, preferably on campus so I can spend some time with my wee ones during the day.
I want to be able to afford a modest home - nothing too fancy or large or suburban - just something that fits my family.
Pepperdine was threatened with fire yesterday. Most of the campus was evacuated and classes were cancelled for today; homes and businesses in SoCal are being burnt. The fire is not contained yet.
I've been humbled by the stark reminder that there are more important things than getting a job. Let's keep those communities in our thoughts.
But...I am a parent and my spouse is in grad school but not on the market yet, and if I do not find a job this year it will actually be a very bad situation for us. If you don't know this, the quality of life that a family of four can afford on a single 13K stipend check is nill. The quality of life we have had on 2 stipends has been poor at best. For some of us, unemployment is a legitimately scary prospect.
3:17 here. I'm terribly sorry if I insinuated that the job search is not a critical factor in people's lives. It was insensitive of me to ignore the diversity of situations that individuals on the job market are in. I will post these types of comments in a more appropriate forum in the future, and I wish you the best of luck on your search.
3:17 no need to apologize. Your comment was fine and appreciated by some. I found your external gaze a refreshing change to all the inwardly focused posts.
I thought that by starting with the (no offense to 3:17) statement it was clear that my comment was not arguing a point. I think you misconstrued my statement.
On a broader note, we all experience the job market differently because we all come from different backgrounds and are operating under a different set of circumstances. I really enjoy reading this blog because it has opened my eyes to just how diverse the job market is in that respect. That is much more refreshing to me than if I found out everyone was in the exact situation as me or was having the same experience.
No new information here, but that's why this is going in this thread. I know a lot of us are in the same boat, so has anybody come up with a good way of staying focused on the future as your dream jobs disappear day by day?
I have started looking for post-docs. And also exploring whether I can get another year of funding from my department if I hold off defending my diss. I applied for 32 jobs, most of which have seen some action on the wiki. I haven't even been short-listed for one, and I'm at a top department and I have publications.
Same here. Looking into post-docs & non-academic options.
I am also from a top department, have multiple well-placed, solo-authored publications & awards. Not short-listed anywhere. Applied to 30 positions.
I have some promising leads from non-academic places. Starting salaries in excess of 80K with good benefits. Time to do my own research as well as policy relevant research. Reasonable hours. Located in large metropolitan areas. Learning about these options makes not hearing anything from the academic side much more easy to take.
I, too, have a child and am considering non-academic jobs. Any suggestions on good clearinghouses or databases for these types of positions? Are individual foundation websites, NYT classifieds, etc. the best bet?
I have found the best sources of information on non-academic jobs are network connections. I have been asking all the former students in my department who took non-academic jobs to give me information, and many have. Also, poke around and contact any research places or think tanks in your specialty area. They might not be advertising, but that doesn't mean they aren't hiring.
I don't know how to start another section here, but given the extent of desparation all around, I think it's a great idea to start a section with info, leads, advice on getting jobs outside academia. Like others above, I'm from a top five, awards, solo publications, and no job in sight.. I don't even know where and how to begin with a non academic job
Some non-academic policy jobs are listed on ASA. Also, there is a clearinghouse for government jobs (e.g. census, etc) but I don't remember the website. There is also the Urban Institute, RAND, and California Policy Institute. You can to go to their individual websites for info.
But I will create a non-academic section on this blog.
Can you have newer posts load at the top, instead of the bottom? (I'm not sure if this is possible) That way we wouldn't have to scroll all the way down... and it keeps the newer comments next to the "Leave your comment" box.
But in the current format, you see conversations develop. If you switched, we would get responses before questions. Seems like it'd be too confusing, no?
For me, it's really not a big deal, if I'm scrolling down all the way to the bottom, or a 1/3 of the way, I just keep track of the last day I was here and go from there. (I try to keep my blog views to 2 a day, this stuff is addicting...)
could we just archive old threads (on the same front page, so you could still read them) and start new ones? This is what polisci does...not to suggest we emulate them, but...
There are 8 or 9 threads. I don't think comments (which are not counted as "posts") can be listed with the most recent comments first. That wouldn't really make sense.
The actual threads/posts, though, can be arranged in chronological order. I personally would not advise against starting new threads, however. For one, I think only the administrator (Alba) can do that. If those on the job market or lurkers were able to create threads, this blog would be a mess.
I say let's not unnecessarily complicate things for Alba. This blog is fine the way it is. So we have to scroll down to the bottom to read the most recent comments. A very minor "burden."
An associate of mine has done a workshop at ASA in the past on working outside of academia. I will email her and ask if she'd be willing to pass along info.
An SC member just called my cell. It was someone I've already been in contact with, but it's still a slightly startling reminder that I have to be ready to be "on" at any point.
There was the smart advice given somewhere on the blog that you can always let it go to voice mail or answering machine, but I had at least one school not leave a message. Plus, I consider it good practice, to keep me on my toes and be ready to answer questions at the drop of a hat.
Things that I think would be funny to say during a campus interview, given the opportunity: 1. Why yes, I am a great dancer. Want to Cha-cha? 2. I like the salary figure we've negotiated. Now let's talk about a corner office and nearby parking spot. 3. What's the university policy on office-drinking? Nudity? 4. My cat is trained on a leash and the toilet. Am I allowed to bring her to faculty meetings? 5. My therapist calls them "psychotic episodes" but I prefer to think of them as "eccentric moments".
Anyone else want to pitch in? I think it relieves stress.
I've always felt that the current state of sociological theory represents a conceptual dialectic between ontological paradoxes and epistemological paradigms.
I see you have a policy against romantic relationships between faculty and students. Is that only for students you personally advise?
My dissertation focuses on the complex relationship between...you know what, I am so freakin' bored with this subject. Can we talk about something else? Anything else...?
I want to know, up front, who the psychos are- faculty, grad students, and other would-be stalkers.
In fact, it'd be best to know who those people are prior to my talk. That way, I can briefly answer their frantic questions and move on to those people who are not likely to show up on the local sex offender registry.
i need to create a similar blog for another group of people. i like this format a lot. but i can't figure out how to create the various threads we have (which are fantastic). i know we all wish to remain anonymous, so contacting anyone is tricky. i wonder if someone can describe how to create specific threads??
They're just blog posts with comments. Create a blog and then click on "create new post". If you want it to look just like this one, make the title large font and leave the text of the post blank.
Oh, I'm not focusing on my work, I'm just trolling the website while waiting for my phone to ring (it's not). Fortunately I'm done with my dissertation, though have to produce enough to justify a year of postdoc
the process is very tiring. so far did 3 phone interviews. just did an on campus interview. got home and today had another request to fly another 2000 miles. of course i realize this is a good thing, but i'm tired, grumpy and a bit shell shocked from the last interview. can't imagine doing it again.
More "fun things to say" (I'm the one who made the original post):
6. This is your car? Do you have a sentimental attachment to it, or do you just not make much money?
7. Be honest... I'm the most attractive candidate you flew out, right? It's ok to admire.
8. I prefer to be addressed as "Genius So-and-So". Somehow, I didn't feel like "Doctor" really covered it.
9. I think hands-on experience is critical in teaching undergrads. Consider the course "Human Sexuality"...
10. Allow me to explain. The restraining order is really more of a suggestion, and the judge told me that it was unsupervised probation. So, it's really not as bad as it sounds.
11. My course evaluations are really influenced by one outlying student. He was retaliating because I broke up with him the week of the final. So, if you remove him from the equation, my averages really go up.
How would I teach intro to soc? Well, I'd have to read up on it for a bit because, to be honest, I'm not really sure yet what sociology, as a field, entails.
it varies, like everything. i have been told that 2 articles a year is a good guideline. if you have lots of things under review right now or in the final stages of revision, then the post-doc year can probably make you a much stronger candidate.
if you don't have anything that will be journal-ready within the next 6 months, then the post-doc year probably won't give your cv much of a boost. but if you have nothing right now, then it would help to at least have something under review.
if you can, think about what your cv should look like a year from now if you took a post-doc. my best advice on post-docs is to go in to one with a clear idea of what you want to accomplish and how you will do it. know who you will work with, what you will work on, and what you plan to do. if you have a plan and stick to it, a post-doc can really pay off.
I applaud those who can turn to humor to relieve job market stress. It's mentally healthy. But I just can't get passed how the paths of our lives are so far out of our control. I've done what I was supposed to do to "guarantee" a job. Where's my job? Now my fate is tied to this very, very bizarre market mechanism. Even if it successfully sorts some "good" sociologists into "good" jobs, it does a lousy job with many others. It's not fair. I know - life's not fair. I could get run over the next time I cross the street. But I reserve the right to complain then, too. (What's the right blog for that one?)
If you get run over the next time you cross the street, I believe the correct place to post would be under Interviewing tips and advice. Perhaps you could ask for strategic ways to introduce it into a conversation in order to garner sympathy from committee members.
In all seriousness though (mostly), I turn to humor only to placate the incredible anxiety I experience and literally pass the time since I can't focus on my dissertation. It's a blessing and a curse, because I generally make jokes when I'm nervous, and I'm just waiting for the time when I completely blow an interview because of it. And frequently the humor is inappropriate in terms of content and timing. It's almost uncontrollable, and very frustrating.
I constantly waver between thinking "well, I don't want to work anywhere that doesn't appreciate me and my work" and "please phone, please ring". One of the "tricks" I play on myself is to imagine my life somewhere completely different. What would happen if I packed up and moved to Alaska and led tours? Or to Nashville to work at the Grand Ole' Opry? It reminds me that I do have other options, even if it would take many tears, some guts, and a complete sense of despair before I took them. It's not always helpful (after all, wasn't I destined to be a sociologist?!?), but it lets me feel "in control" again... at least until I see another dream job posted on the wiki.
Sorry for the rambling. ~The 1:14pm and 1:42pm jokester. aka Benny.
gallows humor - it keeps us going sometimes. i realized today that i would make more money if i took a job selling cosmetics at the mall than i'll probably make as an assistant professor. and it's doubtful that i'll get a job as an assistant professor!
i think it feels out of control for us because we have invested so much time in grad school. but really, this is pretty much par for the course when it comes to trying to find a job. before grad school i worked in the tech industry and i would send out 50 resumes before landing a single phone interview. then after 200 resumes, one company would call and interview me and think i was awesome.
i know it is little comfort, but this is what most people go through when they look for a job. they just get to do it without 10+ years of student loans haunting them!
Well, I for one am becoming massively depressed at the almost complete lack of interest in me. This is my 2nd time on the market. The first time was at the end of my postdoc - I had a couple of interviews but no offers. This is my second year of being a VAP, and I'm a much better candidate this time (pubs in top places, lots of teaching experience, grants), and nothing, zip, zero, zilch. And I really felt confident going into the search.
Ugh. I'm starting to feel inadequate (did I still not do *enough*?), naive (am I just clueless?), and just plain stupid (given what I know of the job market, why did I think I'd get a job this time?). Unfortunately, my sense of self-worth is really taking a beating.
And I know other searching for "normal" jobs are like this (though not nearly so much for other well-educated folks), but at least then you usually get to choose where you live and could potentially make more money.
I know it's early in the season, blah, blah, blah, but there is a definitely a chance that after 10 years and tens of thousands of dollars, I will be unemployed next year.
6:44, the details of my situation are a little different, but the sentiment is exactly the same. I'm so demoralized that I'm practically inert. After years of extremely hard work and lots of success with publishing, it's tough to fall on your face at the end of the race.
i'm curious about the last few posts. are you all applying to all types of positions or just those at top institutions? remember it is the top positions that will be clogged up a while longer, but once one or two people take jobs, the market will open up. folks who've not heard from anyone will start to get calls. if you are applying all over, then i wonder if it is a matter of fit. are people in arcane subspecialties?
I applied to a very wide range of departments, not just elite ones. Maybe my area is a hindrance...but it's not that strange an area. Advice to grad students just starting: don't risk it, go with a core area. You can switch if you want after you get your job.
I agree, arcane specialties, even if accompanied by modest publishing success, put dpts. off. Too risky. I applied to 40+ schools, and effectively nothing. Yeah, things might start opening up, but not the things I'm interested in. Advice to starting graduate students: leave! Run! Go to law school. Or get that job selling cosmetics at the store now before you're in debt have RSI.
Another piece of advice - even if you're not a quantitative researcher, being able to teach undergraduate research methods and/or stats makes you very desirable at undergraduate-only institutions. Get yourself experience teaching core classes and you'll be marketable to a wider range of programs.
The top R1 programs are looking for expertise in a specialty, but BA programs (the majority of jobs out there) need good generalists.
I have a mediocre pub record, and a phd from a top 50 program. But I have taught intro, theory, stats and methods (plus my specialty areas). I'm like a swiss-army knife of sociologists. I sent out about 15 apps this season so far, I've got two campus interviews and am on two long-shortlists (all for schools with 3-3 loads).
Even if you haven't taught these classes before, most of us are trained well enough in any of the core areas to teach them to undergrads. In cover letters, you need to frame yourself as willing and able to teach those classes. And if you don't get a job this year, spend next year getting teaching experience in a core area.
a very famous sociologist joined my dept a couple years ago and he/she was amazed at how narrowly current students conceptualized their interests. her point definitely wasn't lost on me. i knew if she was thinking that, so would others.
some of the best advice i ever got was from an undergrad advisor just before i left for grad school. wherever your interests take you, always take classes in areas like crime or theory. criminology is a big money maker, so people are always higher. theory is the core, so people are always hiring.
Try not to beat yourselves up. I was doing the same last night and was ready to give up, but then I received a call for an interview today and found out I was on a shortlist. Both schools are "second tier" schools. It seems that these teaching oriented schools are beginning their interviews. Not all is lost.
Yeah this sh*t will make you crazy. I just got a letter from a department today and I was almost in tears thinking it was a rejection letter, when all it turned out to be was a letter detailing which materials they had for my application file.
I just keep reminding myself (over and over again) that only one person I know personally has landed a job in the Fall. Even she'd tell you that was a fluke (she was a 3rd ranked candidate - but then the first two declined and she got the job in Dec). Everyone else, whether they had strong, middlin' or weak CVs, got their jobs from Feb all the way to June.
Having said all that, it does suck to be in the "haven't heard a single word" pile.
I was on the market last year to "test the waters." I ended up getting an interview in December, was their first choice, and was offered the job the day after Christmas. I didn't end up taking the job, for a variety of reasons, but I wouldn't despair at this point. There's a lot of factors going into this process, and whoever said that the teaching schools are just beginning to move is absolutely right. Additionally, I know through friends with interviews at top schools that some of the top 10 have only moved on their candidate lists/interviews within the past week. Things are a little strange on the market this year.
Don't give up folks. The market is f****d up and seriously problematic. But for those of us who care more about having a job that's a good fit than climbing some weird ladder of sociological prestige there is a lot of time left this year. A friend of mine has been offered 6 jobs in the past two years - never before the last week of December. The calls for interviews didn't start coming until after Thanksgiving and then continued on into the spring. So hang in there.
If your grad dept was going to hold a "job market info session" (yes, this late into the market season!), what would you want them to address?
While I don't hold faculty responsible for the mess that is the job market, I do think they have some responsibilities to prepare their grad students. Some things that come to mind for me are:
1- reality checks about how dept rankings, networks, and publications factor into who gets hired where. 2- discussion of expectations, faculty's and students' (ie. why do faculty expect us all to land R1s? how can they help us land jobs at SLACs and R2s and R1s?) 3- encourage us to teach/TA a range of useful classes (intro, methods, theory). 4- perhaps hold some kind of workshop prior to market season where students can get feedback on job letters, CVs, and teaching portfolios.
and this is a different but related pipe-dream (at least for my home dept): I wish faculty would encourage pre-MA students to carve out something manageable from their larger research projects so students can really learn the ropes of grant-writing & management, research skills, project framing, and research writing, through the apprentice model.
Again, what would you want to get out of a "job market info session"?
PB--all of the things that you list are already something that many of the top departments already do for their graduate students. One caveat, those things did not come about by themselves. It took the initiative of many graduate students from years past and present to put together solid graduate school councils, professional development workshops, and the like. These efforts also require money and of course, commitment from the faculty--both of which is much harder to obtain at some schools (but certainly not insurmountable obstacles). What I would suggest is that if you really want these things to happen, take the initiative and organize! Also, keep in mind that regardless of how much information you get or how many "first hand" knowledge faculty and fellow graduate students may/can impart to you, let's face it, this whole process of being in graduate school and on the job market is nightmarish and while information can help prepare you a little, it certainly cannot prepare you for the mental anguish and frustration that accompanies the process. Even the "stars" feel the pain. Believe me!
Let's also remember that our graduate school advisers are all R1 faculty. When I went on the market the first time, my adviser actually admitted he couldn't advise me on how best to sell myself to SLACs and teaching institutions. A network of graduate alumni may actually be a better resource for current ABDs than their faculty advisers. Instead of simply blaming our grad programs, we should all volunteer to discuss these issues with other students in our programs once we have positions.
thanks 11:17AM. i needed to hear that. i've had a couple of phone interviews and made a short-list - all appear to have now past me by. it's frustrating.
Perfectly said 5:10am! Couldn't agree more. While depts are responsible, grads *must* organize themselves. They are the best source of information and advise, especially since they're going through it NOW.
Isn't it up to incoming graduate students to get a feel for the market they're entering? For instance, I would have loved to have been a professional baseball player but I looked into it and realized that it was very unlikely I'd be able to earn a living playing baseball. So I accepted that I would have to settle for something other than my dream profession. When graduate schools accepted us they agreed to give us training, they didn't guarantee us that we'd be professors. This was our hope, not our entitlement. I agree that the most likely avenue for change in the sociology labor market is through student organizing. But if this happened it would be a long-term struggle that would likely bring about marginal change. I fully understand why job seekers are frustrated, and I agree that the market works in strange ways and merit is not always the deciding factor in who is successful. But if the market does not work as we had hoped, we should've paid more attention before we signed up for grad school.
We haven't had a self-pitying post in a few days, so I thought I'd fill the gap. I look at that long, long list of schools that have scheduled 3 interviews each on average. How did they even find enough warm bodies to do all that interviewing? And how did they scare up all these people without even considering me? I count 89 schools right now on the list, and 89*3=267. I wasn't qualified for any of those slots?! Bummer. I suck. I know that many of those interview slots went to a small group of people, and I know I didn't apply to all the positions. But there's still a world of rejection going on.
give it time. the market will open up. that 89*3 doesn't account for all of the overlap. someone in my dept has SIX interviews at R1s, all in Oct and Nov. he/she can only take one of them. there is still hope!
I can't post on funny things to say during an interview; my plan is instead to twitch and giggle hysterically while adjusting myself repeatedly, and then to drink myself into insensibility at dinner. Oh, and to refer to the search committee chair as either 'Mr.' or 'Mrs.' - whichever is the incorrect gender.
I plan to communicate primarily through the passage of gas in Morse Code, starting with a simple SOS and then, if they get that, progressing to derogatory remarks about the department and the mothers of everyone I meet.
I shall go to lunch with the grad students and ask, in a salacious whisper with much waggling of brows, if it is true that the department head is inordinately fond of sheep.
I will immediately bring up to the issue of kids and partner hires - in fact, I'll just bring my young children with me and see who's on call to babysit during the interview.
I've got this vexing situation of double partner hires-- my wife and our girlfriend. Any school I work out has to figure how to accommodate all three of us. That's my priority. But so far at these interviews, the faculty members haven't been very receptive when I bring this up. The issue is that we're firmly opposed to polygamy, so we can't even make a double-spouse appeal (seems discriminatory to me). Any advice?
I don't expect to get any interviews, but I don't plan to let that minor detail get in my way. I will show up at my top 3-4 departments and post fliers for my job talk. I will show up at the restaurant where the chair is having dinner and invite myself to join him/her. I will send them the bill for my flight and hotel.
Once I have selected my first choice department, I will extend myself a job offer and then negotiate for more research funds. Sometimes you just have to show that you are willing to take the initiative with these things.
During my campus visit, I will give everyone I meet a nickname and then use it constantly. For example, I will call the senior tenured religion scholar "God-boy" and the feminist researcher "Baby Girl".
I will nasally inspect, on hands and knees, the floors of any offices, hallways or classrooms that I visit, as bad-smelling flooring is a deal-breaker for me.
I'm not on the market yet this year, but the job candidates from my school who say they are getting little response from employers are really worrying all of the rest of us. Are they just being alarmist and "jumping the gun" when they say things aren't going well for them this year, or should we take what they say as cause for concern?
There's no need for concern as long as YOU have some combo of the following (note that you will need more than one of these):
- 1+ lead/solo authored publication in AJS/ASR/SF. - an extremely famous and well-connected committee chair who is pushing you. - a PhD from a well-ranked program (Top 5 - maybe Top 10)
If you want to see who is getting the interviews and the offers for yourself, check out the "events" pages of some of the top 25 programs and see who they're inviting out to give talks. I just did this for Cornell - then I googled the invited speakers. Let's just say that I am feeling amazingly inadequate with my 2 solo articles, 3 co-authored articles, 4 grants & fellowships, decent amount of teaching experience and a PhD from a Top 30 department. Oh, and I've heard next to nothing from any potential employers.
7:50, I'm on the market and was beginning to freak out a bit as the wiki list of schools scheduling interviews grew longer and longer. Now, though, things have begun to heat up for me and I'm getting some calls. I think the people who posted calming "It's still early days" messages were correct. All is not lost.
7:50 Yes, I'm afraid there's a lot of cause for concern. I have some of the above, and have heard nothing too. If you're early enough in the program I would just advise you to QUIT--that's what I would have done knowing what I know now. Or specialize in something that you could use outside academia. Or work 80 hours a week to get those publications.
I'm not exactly sure where to post this, but I was wondering if there are any dual-sociologist couples out there? Or, do you know of any? any recommendations for increasing the odds of finding jobs at schools near each other? My partner and I are not married (we are a heterosexual couple). Will this make a difference for the possibility of partner hires?
As if there wasn't enough to worry about on the market...
My spouse isn't in Sociology, but is on the market in a closely related field (close enough to have applied for some jobs in soc departments). Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions - the whole process has been very stressful for us. We only applied at places where the other could fit in somewhere, whether or not there was an open position. This meant expanding the search beyond research schools, but we placed a greater priority on living in the same city (go figure).
I know that's not much help, but, you're not alone.
I have a friend in a dual-sociologist couple. I can't give the names, but both partners are applying for academic soc jobs. They have gotten some interest from schools who understand their needs.
Re: Dual sociologist couples. There are many ways this can play out. In some ways, it's easier to have a partner in the same field, b/c a department has more control over its own lines than lines in another department (e.g. biology). Of course, that depends on the size of the department too. I think you take different strategies depending on what stage each of you is at and your credentials. I think if both of you are serious superstars or if one of you is, you can more safely mention each other either at the end of your cover letter, or ask your letter writers to mention it. If both people in the couple have roughly the same credentials, it's probably wiser to wait until you each have some interest, and then try to finagle something for the other person once you're in the door (e.g. bring it up at the interview with the dept. chair). It does mean that it's probably worth it to not test the market too early.
It's very tricky and stressful. It may be easier in the long run for both of you to go on the market at the same time, but that market run can be very, very stressful (have a couples therapist on hand, or at least some good resources for coping with the stress and negotiations). Many universities and colleges are in small towns that have difficultly attracting and/or retaining single people, and many of those schools are getting good at managing dual career couples. (I had one school tell me: "we understand that smart people marry smart people.") So, for many schools, going after a couple is riskier in the short run--they have two wildcards to negotiate, not one-- but a couple is a huge catch in the long run because couples are probably more stable faculty members. And, like all things with this market, the better your CVs and the higher ranked your PhD institutions, the better.
One last thing: this is a good time for dual career couples, demographically. A lot of departments right now have lines opening up because of current and imminent retirements, so it seems like departments are in a better position to lobby their deans to open up an extra line for a partner.
On that topic, does this apply to same-sex partners (or unmarried heterosexual partners)? I don't think most departments are blatantly homophobic, but in my experience, people tend to treat marriage differently than partnership, even when some of us don't have the option to marry.
I agree--and I also think that many schools would balk at a 'spousal hire' for someone who is not technically a spouse--for either hetero or homosexual couples. It sucks for both kinds of couples--and maybe even more for hetero couples, who 'could' marry--but they don't want to arrange a spousal hire for someone when there isn't a definite 'commitment.' I could be wrong, but that's my hunch.
On the topic of dual-sociologist couples, there are a ton I know about. And I do think schools are getting wise to the benefits of such hires, and working more toward accommodating them. But that doesn't mean it's not still very difficult--unless one, or preferably both, of you are stars. Your best bet is going to be those places that happen to be hiring two people--in your areas...
My state university has extensive domestic partner benefits. I don't know for sure, but I think my department would treat a domestic partner the same way they would treat a spouse (whether a same-sex or opposite-sex couple).
Remember, there are opposite-sex couples who chose not to marry for moral and even political reasons too.
so some of us have been a little discouraged by our lack of success on the early job market. so i figured i would post some reasons why being a grad student is better than being an assistant professor.
starting with: i am typing this comment while sitting on my couch in a bathrobe and slippers. my dog is sleeping on my feet. i am having a beer because i just finished the final version of the analysis for the final chapter of my dissertation.
i don't have to attend any faculty meetings, committee meetings, or planning sessions. i don't have to schedule office hours or try and teach undergrads (or for those who enjoy teaching - i get to focus all my attention on only one class a semester). i can work from 4am to noon if that's when i work best. i don't have to dress nicely.
okay, okay, i know there are a lot of good things about being a professor. like not living off $16,000 a year. if that. but as i enjoy my beer and look at the pretty leaves outside and listen to jazz while SAS runs all its various proc-whatevers...sometimes it helps to find the good things in where you're at.
Can anybody clue me in on what a "preparation" consists of? Wisconsin-Lacrosse's job posting says "All department faculty are expected to teach 12 credit hours (3 preparations) each semester." Can somebody translate that? I've never been exposed to a system that deals in either credit hours or preparations.
A "prep" is the work you do to prepare for a single course. I would guess that means the teaching load is 4/4, with two sections of one of the classes. So, you might teach Intro, Intro, Methods, and Strat. Which is better than teaching 4 different courses, and why they mention that in the ad.
More reasons why being a grad student is better: 1. No pesky "tenure clock" ticking sounds. 2. Student loans are still in deferment. 3. Student discounts at the movie theatre. 4. You can still displace responsibility to either your advisor or department. 5. There are 2 Simpsons episodes that make fun of grad students - totally worth it!! 6. Instead of explaining my research, I can just tell people that I'm still a student. 7. A publication is a HUGE deal, worthy of celebration. 8. Professors expect to pay for your meal/drinks when you dine together. 9. (to second cpl) Jeans and t's are normative.
Re: dual-career sociologists (7:40 AM). My partner and I are married and on the job market (both in soc). It's stressful, largely because we don't know how to handle certain personal questions on campus visits. Almost everyone has recommended that we do not talk about our marital status. But at times that makes it's very uncomfortable talking about yourself ('I' is almost always 'we'). Following advice, we have opted not to mention our 'spousal situation' during campus visits and instead deal with it if/when one gets an offer.
Good morning, friends! It's raining here in Carolina and we're not likely to hear much on the market this week with the holiday. Easy to get discouraged. But try the best you can to forget all about job searching for a week and enjoy the holiday.
I have been told that often times the smaller schools and tier-2 research places will list new postings around the first of the year so even if you haven't gotten any nibbles yet, hang in there.
I've been rallying students in my dept to demand for job market prep resources. As I stated in a post above, at my dept, if you get an interview, you get a practice job talk. But that's it for institutional resources. If your advisors are competent, then you probably get some sound advice for navigating the R1 job market (though very few of us actually land R1 jobs).
My dept provides: -NO practice job talks without interviews -NO teaching demos -NO help with teaching portfolios, job letters, CVs, or other job application materials. - and very very few "info" sessions (these sessions, when they happen, are mostly about what it's like to go on an interview at an R1 school). -NOTHING about non-academic positions, post-docs, and SLACs.
When I posted about this before, several of you said that these items are standard for students at other departments, esp. "top departments." I think that knowing more concrete details about this claim would help the faculty at my dept understand that the job market is a structural issue and cannot be met with individualized plans of action.
If your department has standardized job market resources (panels, info sessions, practice talks/demos, etc), would you please say something here: (ie. UC-??, SLAC panel, exit seminar, practice talks). If your dept does not have standardized job market resources, please use this space to complain, if you wish.
I did my grad work at a top 5. I feel like they did an excellent job of preparing us for the job market (well, at least for R1 jobs). We had professional development seminars (organized by students but funded by the department or pop center) that covered everything from what a CV looks like to negotiating after a job offer. We were expected to present at ASA, PAA, and other conferences every year. Everyone, I think, did a practice job talk early in the fall they were on the market (and those also in the pop center did one there as well). My advisor also had me practice just with her several times.
I do feel that a lot of this stuff was organized by the students, and a lot of it was also just "passed down" from student to student. There were some very generous advanced students who spent a lot of time 'socializing' the newbies. The faculty seemed to have skewed notions of what the market was like, sometimes. So having a cohesive, generous student contingent may be an important factor. This is also a relatively small program, which may also help.
UC-Santa Barbara does not have any standardized job market resources. Thus far, we've had one faculty organized information session - and that happened about 2 weeks ago! As I wrote above, that was mostly useful for navigating an interview at an R1.
If you get an interview, you get a practice job talk.
There's also a list-serv for forwarding jobs - this seems to be rather ad hoc, meaning that no one funnels jobs from normal job list sources.
But, again, there's no standard access to help for putting together all the components of a job application and nothing about non-academic work, post-docs, or SLACs. If your advisors know this kind of stuff, and you have the foresight to ask them the right questions, you might get some good advice. But if your advisor is in France for the year or hasn't been out on the market in a couple of decades, they're just not much help.
We, the grad students, are in the process of trying to change the situation at UCSB. We'll see what happens.
re: Dual career sociologists. My spouse and I were on the market last year, both looking for tenure track positions. We ended up accepting spousal hire positions at a smaller R1. Everyone gave us different advice, but sometimes you have to go with your gut regarding when to disclose a spouse in the same field on the market.
One thing to keep in mind, that my adviser told me, is that it is a tremendous amount of work to get a tenure line approved by the dean's office. It can be incredibly inconsiderate to the chair to wait until you have an offer to say that you have a spouse who also needs a tenure track job in the *same* department. The reality is, that people talk, even though they can't ask you about it and eventually they find out. Sometimes it's better to roll the dice to see how bad they want you. Especially in the age of baby boomer rotating out and departments losing faculty. Sometimes lines can be leveraged against retiring faculty.
I disclosed in all of my fly-out interviews that I had a spouse who was also in need of a tenure track faculty position and in our case, for 2 out of 3 interviews, they voted to fly him out for interviews as well. The chairs of the search committees actually seemed to appreciated not having the information sprung on them later and were very receptive to pulling his file. This may not be true for other people's experiences on the market, but I felt it was very important to give the search committees time to negotiate with their deans for my spouse and in the end it worked out as we both got tenure track jobs in the same department. Just know that there are other alternatives to waiting until you get an offer, but I understand wanting to be cautious.
6:55. Each case was different. In one case I actually disclosed the info at my short interview at ASA because the interview went so well. The department chair then pulled my husband's vita and met with him also. In the other fly-out case, the department chair found out indirectly that I had a spouse on the market (my adviser informed me), so during my fly-out interview I disclosed the information and they pulled his file and voted to fly him out. The third school was a strange situation because my husband was encouraged to apply by the head of the SC and when he mentioned he had a spouse, the SCC encouraged us both to apply. In the end the SC voted to only fly me out for a job talk although they were aware of my spouse also vying for the position. So as I said these things can vary from case to case.
6:55. And I forgot to mention in the first two cases the departments were enthusiastically working towards dual hires while the third department was very noncommittal about providing us both with positions and as a result, although they were a top tier school, they were dropped from the running because we had no guarantee of job prospects for both of us.
Heh. Thanks for the reading suggestion, although I'm not sure that's the title to get my mind off the job market. Just reading the dust-jacket blurbs (via the Amazon link), that book is much more likely to send me into a further spiral of professional inadequacy. I think I'll try some combination of '80s dance music and a long walk outdoors in my pursuit of zen-mind. Maybe then I'll shift to getting *actual* work done (though certainly not 'infiltrating a gang' ~ jeeesh!). ;-)
Things for which I'm thankful: My family and I safe and warm and will be well-fed by the end of the day; My advisor/mentor is warm, kind, supportive, brilliant, funny and immensely capable; I am doing work which I find fascinating; I'm healthy; I have a wonderful and healthy son; I'm on a path of my choosing - one which I would not trade for any other, even with these ups and downs and worries.
Funny responses during the Q&A after your job talk:
Q: So what would you describe as the biggest contributions of your research?
A: Well, for starters, I'd say that the biggest contribution is to myself. Being able to research and write about people's secret hygiene problems has really helped me achieve a breakthrough with my own hygiene problems. I mean, I will probably still need several more years of therapy, but I'm happy to say that my dissertation research taught me enough to make it to this interview smelling clean!
A: That's a great question. I'd like to start by exploring the epistemological origins of the concept of a "contribution", keeping in mind both the patriarchal legacy of the term and the myriad of ways in which it has been used as a vehicle of oppression.
Well, I'm furthering our understanding of how first world countries can dominate and colonize underdeveloped countries. And since first world countries are where academia is most privileged, I feel as though this ensures that both you and I will have our jobs for a very long time. Would you like to hear about my policy implications?
Okay....I had a campus interview yesterday and as I was sitting there, this board came to mind so I thought I would contribute a questions I thought about asking:
"So....I know teacher-student sexual relations are sometimes frowned upon....anything in writing here against it?....And really, how much trouble are we talking?"
isn't it funny how those sexual relationship concerns always come up?! makes me think back to my early days in graduate school, and faculty were "orienting" us to the dos and don'ts of teaching. later we learned the same folks who were telling us not to encourage relationships with our students are now married to their former students...
hey, any fellow-sociologists out there who want to give me some needed relationship advice?? (yes, this does relate to job-seeking!!)
my research interests are international, and i have lived/conducted researched overseas, including for extended periods of time.
my current partner is supportive - but does not share my goals of international work at all. recently, he said something like "well, you will only take our [future] children to countries which are not on the state dept. 'do not travel' list, right?" my response of course: yeah right! i'm going everywhere and anywhere, toting those little babes on my hip in a cool baby-hip-sling!
so of course, my job search is turning slightly into a 'break from the relationship' time. add to the mix that i've had an on-again-off-again relationship with a TT faculty in a major US city, which has an abundance of colleges and universities...the big problem preventing us from dating was geographical distance.
how much is it critical to consider the 'academic lifestyle' when selecting your mate? and, for those of us who are not 'academic couples' - how do we possibly navigate geographic locations when considering other relationships??
I'd hate to turn Dr. Phil on you, Julia, BUT I think academic lifestyle is important in mate selection. Lots of problems can potentially come up as some nonacademic types don't fully understand one's devotion to arcane research questions, disregard for traditional ways of doing things, etc....I'd also caution people against some of the pitfalls of selecting a mate who is another sociologist. All of these career decisions are simplified if you aren't connected to a mate or children. That's probably not "right" but it has been my experience.
2:13, your comments make sense. in a way, i've already come to the conclusion that a non-academic mate won't work for me.
here are my biggest rationale:
1. lifestyle - freedom to take up an exciting visiting position across the world (which regular 9-5'ers can't usually swing)
2. worldview - i've found that non-academics tend to have a much less sceptical view of the world and how it functions...plus the desire to CHANGE things is critical in my femist-equal justice orienation
as a side note, my TT guy in the distant city is not sociology - but he is history/african american studies. the meeting of the minds is intellectually stimulating. can it stay sexy for the long term??
oh, but i should add as well: the downfall to staying clear of mates and children can be that the big empty bed gets a little cold on those chilly nights.
i do, afterall, plan to have my life be about more than just my job and research...
Regarding 2:13's comment on the pitfalls of marrying another sociologist. You shouldn't let the complexities of career challenges completely dictate who you choose as a life partner. I actually married a fellow sociologist I went to grad school with. Our experience may not necessarily representative, but we've figured out how to make it work with the support of a professional networks and colleagues. After two years of a long distance relationship from different states, we both landed 2 year postdocs in the same institution, followed by tenure track faculty positions in the same R1 department. While being in the same department with your spouse can lead to some challenges, it's important to recognize that dual career relationships in the same discipline can work *and* be successful. I'm not saying it's not difficult, but I do think it was worth it to roll the dice in spite of the cautionary tales and discouraging remarks we heard.
Does anyone have any experiences with relationships with non-academics? Successful? Not?
Obviously, these are non-representative, etc. But hearing some perspectives and experiences might help those of us at a 'crossroads' and wondering what kind of life partner might be best as we look for academic jobs.
7:03, you're probably right. i was speaking from my experience with sociology partners. i think the biggest issue is staying supportive of one another -- even if the other is doing really well and you're not. it really sucks when someone gets mad at you for scoring some successes in the field and basically tells you to not do so well. jealousy brings out the nasty side of people.
True, 8:38, that jealousy can be nasty... but maybe the sociologist(s) you dated would have been poor mates no matter what their career (I mean no offense personally, this is just based on your comments).
I have made it work with my fellow sociologist partner for nearly 10 years after SWEARING before grad school that I would avoid such a relationship (never say never haha). We both have tt jobs at an R1 (though now we're pondering moving). There is definitely some "anti couple" bias in certain departments, but other departments see it as a way to attract good people (and a way to leverage their univ for additional resources to hire).
Anyway, I'm glad I didn't let my career ambitions keep me from being with the love of my life (in hindsight, that would have been very shallow and silly of me!). No matter who you fall for, you'll figure it out if you both respect each other and communicate openly. OK, now I'm turning into Dr. Phil...
I posted this request in August (which feels like years ago now!) - to those of you that did interviews at ASA in NYC through the employment service:
1. Did you apply to any of those schools? 2. If so, did you get shortlisted or fly-outs?
I did 8 ASA ints, and was shortlisted at 2 of them so far - 25%, which is not bad. I'm just trying to determine if the ASA ints are actually helpful. What do others think?
I would recommend them. So far I got two on-campus interviews and shortlisted on at least another two all stemming from the ASA employment service. So in my opinion it was well worth the time and money.
I did 6 interviews at ASA. After 3 of these, I decided not to apply for the position. (Two weren't a good fit for me. One interview raised serious red flags about a lack of collegiality in the department.)
Of the 3 that I applied for, I have been shortlisted at one and heard nothing from the others.
Don't forget that the ASA interviews are not just valuable in terms of helping you get to the shortlist. They can be very useful for determining the type of school and department where YOU would like to work.
I had 7 ASA interviews. I applied to 3 of them. Thought I had a strong chance at all three. I have heard nothing from any of them. One has already made an offer, one is already doing interviews, and the other hasnt done anything yet.
Thanks to all who replied to my questions about ASA job ints. From this tiny biased sample, it appears that they have some small positive effect on outcomes. If anyone has more data to contribute, please do!
This doesn't disagree with people who think the ASA interviews work but rather encouragement for people who don't do them for one reason or another. I signed up (late to be fair) and submitted requests to about 8 schools; none scheduled an interview with me. I am now in the process of negotiating a position with a research university and was on the long short list at another research university. Neither of these schools interviewed at the ASA so my lack of interviews was more about what types of schools were interviewing and the match with my specialties than my qualifications as a candidate. Still, it was an ego hit when NO ONE wanted to interview me at ASA.
I've been on the market twice and landed jobs each time without the benefit of using the ASA interviews. They obviously aren't necessary. The schools where I got offers did interview there.
I suspect these interviews are useful in that you get more practice in honing your rap. I wonder if there is a likelihood of damaging your chances at a top choice school if you interview with them at ASA before you've honed your rap.
From the perspective of someone on a SC, I see the ASA interviews as a way to weed out people more so than as a way to find the right person.
i did the ASA interviews and heard nothing from any school i interviewed with. however, i still think it was a good experience because it pushed me to be able to give a nice, cohesive summary of various aspects of my work.
one of the hardest questions we get at this stage of our careers is "so...tell me about your dissertation." in preparing for the ASA interviews, i was able to develop a 2-3 minute answer to that question as well as things like "what kind of research do you do", "what are your main interests", and "what can you bring to a department". having given my answers as those ASA interviws, i now feel much more confident giving them again during a "real" interview. that is, if i had any. which i don't.
I've been on the job market a couple times and been offered 6 jobs (not all in one year) and no school has *ever* asked to interview through the ASA interview service. At least 3 of the places I've been offered jobs at over the past two years did conduct interviews through the ASA service.
That said, I do think, as CPL suggested, that it's a great way to practice your presentation of your work. I've also heard multiple faculty members say that it's a way for them to weed out candidates. That's largely what SCs do. Because they get so many applications a large part of the SC's job is to exclude applications.
I agree with not giving too much of your time with it, and those who comment that it helps improve your interviewing skills.
My data: I interviewed with 4 schools at ASA. Two flew me out, one invited me to fly out (which I declined for fit reasons), and the fourth hasn't moved yet. Take it for the N=4 that it is.
ASA interviews: I had 3 interviews and was invited to 0 of the 3... I've had interest from other programs, and I'm pretty sure the main problem is that I don't do well in that kind of interview setting (I was right on for 2 of those 3). So my advice is: if the 30 minute meat market is not your thing, don't do it, b/c they will weed you out...
443 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 443 Newer› Newest»I agree with 6:42. Top schools will hold it against you ("you're not really interested in us, you just want to live in X").
Lower-ranked schools (especially those in areas that are not desired by everyone else) may like that you have interest or roots in the area. But, I don't think it will help if the geographical area is generally urban or desirable. Schools in New York or Boston or Chicago don't care about a geographic draw - they know that people want to live there to solve the two-body problem. If, however, you're dying to be in Nebraska or West Texas, I'd mention it.
At ANY type of school, I think it's a bit unprofessional to mention a spouse/partner in your cover letter. I think the most I would say is that I have personal or family reasons for being especially interested in the geographic area.
I agree with the last two posts. Definitely good advice!
I'd add one exception...if you already have a job, but are moving because of geography, you might mention it. Otherwise the committee will wonder why you are leaving. They'll probably assume it is because you had to leave. That's not a good thought to have running through search members' heads.
i originally asked about geographical limits on the job search. thanks for the great advice. i didn't say anything specific in my cover letter, but i'm wondering also about a strategy more broadly. are people considering jobs at all different kinds of schools? what if you want to be at a research school, should you take a job at a low-resource state school and hope that you can move later to a research school? does this generally work or is it too risky? is it better to stay in grad school until you get "the" job you want?
I don't want to be depressing about it, but if you want to be geographically picky, you have to be less picky about other things (like type of school, teaching load). You may have to take a job with a 4-4 load, and then you'll still be lucky to have found something in that place. Moving up to a better school will be hard, and may not ever happen. But in this line of work, we usually have to sacrifice either geography or institution.
Does anyone know how to find out what the teaching load is at any given school without waiting to ask the search committee during an interview?
11:28...simple...go to the department's webpage and look at their course listings for the semester. Count how many courses are assigned to each faculty. It may vary if someone is the chair that year or if someone negotiated to teach one less course during their first year. But for the most part, you should get a good idea that way.
Ugh. Since this is the non-serious thread, I'll take the opportunity to vent. This job market is unfair and irrational. Sorry to state the obvious. But posting that message somehow feels a smidgeon better.
I've done everything you're supposed to do to get a good job (including a sole-authored publication in one of the big three journals), and still nothing. It's making me crazy, trying to figure out why this isn't working. It's like I've got academic cooties.
I understand. I've got a sole-authored article in a top 10 journal and another in a top 5 journal, several good working papers, won several really prestigous awards, presented every year in all the major conferences, come from a top 10 department, have good letters from good professors. I have also heard nothing.
I was upset for awhile but then I realized that things are still early. I don't know what I was expecting but we are all in it for the long haul. Hang in there. Eventually we will find something.
Thanks, 11:33. It took me a while to find it for a couple of schools, but i eventually found it.
re: teaching load
keep in mind that looking at class schedules might be less reliable for top departments where faculty can buy out of classes. we have some professors who have not taught an undergraduate class in years, but new faculty get a 2-2 load unless they land grant money to buy out.
Its nice to know that even the people who should be considered *stars* are not getting calls either. I have a VERY strong feeling that we are competing against current Asst. Profs and people with post-docs. Either that, or the same 5-6 people are interviewing EVERYWHERE!
I can tell you that only 2/10 people on our shortlist were ABDs (we're an R1). Now, we have a particular interest in hiring at the 'senior junior' level--so don't take that as gospel everywhere. But, several people on the SC commented that they had never seen so many non-ABDs in the application pile. In fact, we had several applications from people with tenure. Maybe this is just a year when people are looking to move, for some reason.
This honestly is not meant to be discouraging--just informative. As has been discussed here before, many schools like to snag ABDs fresh out of grad school.
12:17,
Based on your experience, can you tell us, in very generic terms, what the cv's of the people who end up getting called look like? For instance, do these assistant prof's need to have a sole-authored AJS/ASR/SF? A book contract? About how many journal articles? Do you interview people who didn't go to a top 20 department? Just how high is the bar?
For me, the saddest thing about these boards is witnessing people realizing for the first time that there simply are not enough academic jobs to go around... not even for all of the people who would be a very good fit with many of the posted positions. not even for all of the people who did everything you're supposed to do to get a job. There are simply too many of us.
What does it mean when people say that things are just getting started? Half of my application list has already made progress according to the wiki. :-(
12:17 here. I have to be really vague, I'm afraid, so I won't discuss what the people we're interviewing look like.
But to get on our shortlist as an asst. prof, 9/10 were from a top 15 department. Several had 2-3 books. Those that were article-types had either 1 sole-authored in a top 3 journal plus several others; or many in lower-tier journals (like, 8-10).
Again, we were hoping to find a 'senior junior' person. The people on our long shortlist who were ABD tended to have 1 sole-authored piece in ASR/AJS/SF, fantastic rec letters, and several articles in the pipeline. We did have candidates who met those criteria who were not on the list--and that just had to do with departmental fit. We also eliminated some from our informal discussions at ASA. I think all the ABDs on our list were from top-15 schools.
What's sadder for me is that our mentors and peers confidently assert that there is a formula for getting a job. (We all know what that looks like.) But it's not true. The formula is unreliable, which means that the label of "formula" is inaccurate.
I can take the idea that some people won't get jobs. But it's harder to take the idea that people who are "supposed to" get jobs won't.
12:17,
Thanks! That was very helpful. Depressing as hell, but helpful.
I wonder if 12:17 would share any general observations on things that led to ASA discussions serving to eliminate candidates. Based on the interest in me at ASA (a lot) vs. the interest in me now (absolutely none), I think that may have happened to me. I'm thinking about what I might do differently next year if it comes to that.
12:17 again. This is so much more interesting than working on my class prep.
One thing about informal ASA conversations (I'm not talking about the 'meet market' employment service) is that departments are probably talking to a ton of people. I know we talked to at least 12. So I wouldn't despair if none of those conversations has yet turned into anything.
Again, I can't be too specific--but generally, if we felt people 'weren't that into us', we crossed them off the list. We don't want to waste our time on someone who thinks of us as a 4th or 5th choice. You'd be surprised what some candidates will say to SC members! I wish I could post specific comments but that might get me in trouble. And I do wonder if those who seemed 'not that into us' would change their tune now that things have started moving (if they are not getting called by places they thought they would).
And it's totally subjective--sometimes someone would just rub a SC member the wrong way and that would kill their application. It sucks, but seriously, we have to have some way to weed people out. And we will have to live with new hires for a long time!
I guess I would say, if a place expresses interest in you and wants to meet with you at ASA, be as charming and interested in their job as possible. Again, this seems elementary, but apparently, it's not.
To follow up on 12:42's comments, I was just asking someone in my department about this, and he said that this is what they are seeing this year with applicants too. He said their top pick right now is an Asst. Prof at another college (been out for three years), and has some top pubs. My school is a top 25. We are not just competing with ABDs like the old days...
We should keep in mind that if Asst Profs are changing schools, many of the schools that they leave behind may be hiring replacements in the Spring or next year on the market, so it does seem to balance out to some degree.
The Asst Prof thing is really interesting. I wonder if as the market has gotten increasingly tighter (which began several years ago, as I understand it), people have become increasingly willing to accept less desirable positions and actually *plan* to leave before tenure?
I recently read Harvard's 'Top Academic Workplaces' Report. A great way to 'pass the time'. It lists the top places to work for junior faculty! (link on two lines)
http://gseacademic.harvard.edu/~coache
/reports/20070123.html
I'm curious (and bored of writing my dissertation!) - what are your dream jobs and why? Are we all gunning for the same schools or do we all want different things?
i want to live in a city near my family, get paid enough to afford a mortgage, and be able to research slightly 2/3 of the time and teach only 1/3 of the time.
i know, i'm crazy, but that would be my dream job (don't care about dept rank all that much)
I would love to work at a good liberal arts college somewhere in the North East. Unlike everyone else (it would seem) I really don't mind teaching, so a 2/3rd teaching 1/3 research schedule would suit me. Oh yeah, and a decent salary wouldn't go amiss either.
I want to be at a SLAC (where the S stands for selective). I love the sense of community and collegiality that comes with those types of institutions, but it's also important that I'll still have research support. I'd like to be back in California, but otherwise, anywhere within a reasonable distance from an urban center is great.
I'm with you, 12:41. I prefer more teaching, less research. Except I'd rather be in the Southeast, within an hour or two of the coast.
what I dream of: the small class sizes and close relationships with students of a liberal arts college, enough time to still do some research and writing (maybe 1/3 of my time), and life in a city and/or near some mountains.
I'd like a job near the southeast coast at a mid-level research institution. I prefer a 2-2 or 2-3 teaching load at most. I'd like to be at a university with a research center where I can pursue cross-disciplinary work.
-cpl
this is fun! my ideal is a small, liberal, midwestern college town in the middle of nowhere. in my dream world, no teaching at all...100% research. oh, and i want to be able to be myself, not feel competitive with my colleagues, and sometimes hang out and play poker with them. any search committees out there with a weakness for texas hold 'em?
OK, I want to be tenured at Harvard. I admit that that's my dream job.
6:22, you need a postdoc! Preferably one of the RWJ ones--so you can pull in the big bucks and still live the life you described...albeit just for 2 years...
I want family-friendly colleagues who do excellent, socially relevant research, and who do not take themselves too seriously.
I want a job at NYU or Columbia b/c I want to live in NYC. They have amazing housing subsidies and that's the only way I could afford to live in that city!
I want a job in a department that supports a doctoral program. I don't care about departmental rankings. I want to have a 2/2 or 2/3 teaching load. I want to work with graduate students - better yet, I want to have a good sized grant so I can support some graduate students. I want to work with colleagues who are decent and not too disciplinarily-myopic.
I want to live in large enough town so that my partner's career doesn't go down the toilet.
I want to have access to good child care, preferably on campus so I can spend some time with my wee ones during the day.
I want to be able to afford a modest home - nothing too fancy or large or suburban - just something that fits my family.
8:49 -
I'll do rock-paper-scissors with you for that job. It sounds like my ideal job too.
-cpl
Pepperdine was threatened with fire yesterday. Most of the campus was evacuated and classes were cancelled for today; homes and businesses in SoCal are being burnt. The fire is not contained yet.
I've been humbled by the stark reminder that there are more important things than getting a job. Let's keep those communities in our thoughts.
(nothing against 3:17)
But...I am a parent and my spouse is in grad school but not on the market yet, and if I do not find a job this year it will actually be a very bad situation for us. If you don't know this, the quality of life that a family of four can afford on a single 13K stipend check is nill. The quality of life we have had on 2 stipends has been poor at best. For some of us, unemployment is a legitimately scary prospect.
Thanks for putting that out there 8:21. I agree.
3:17 here. I'm terribly sorry if I insinuated that the job search is not a critical factor in people's lives. It was insensitive of me to ignore the diversity of situations that individuals on the job market are in. I will post these types of comments in a more appropriate forum in the future, and I wish you the best of luck on your search.
3:17 no need to apologize. Your comment was fine and appreciated by some. I found your external gaze a refreshing change to all the inwardly focused posts.
I thought that by starting with the (no offense to 3:17) statement it was clear that my comment was not arguing a point. I think you misconstrued my statement.
On a broader note, we all experience the job market differently because we all come from different backgrounds and are operating under a different set of circumstances. I really enjoy reading this blog because it has opened my eyes to just how diverse the job market is in that respect. That is much more refreshing to me than if I found out everyone was in the exact situation as me or was having the same experience.
-cpl
No new information here, but that's why this is going in this thread. I know a lot of us are in the same boat, so has anybody come up with a good way of staying focused on the future as your dream jobs disappear day by day?
I have started looking for post-docs. And also exploring whether I can get another year of funding from my department if I hold off defending my diss. I applied for 32 jobs, most of which have seen some action on the wiki. I haven't even been short-listed for one, and I'm at a top department and I have publications.
Always have a Plan B.
Same here. Looking into post-docs & non-academic options.
I am also from a top department, have multiple well-placed, solo-authored publications & awards. Not short-listed anywhere. Applied to 30 positions.
I have some promising leads from non-academic places. Starting salaries in excess of 80K with good benefits. Time to do my own research as well as policy relevant research. Reasonable hours. Located in large metropolitan areas. Learning about these options makes not hearing anything from the academic side much more easy to take.
yeah when you have a kid or more than one, this is very scary to not hear back from any schools
I, too, have a child and am considering non-academic jobs. Any suggestions on good clearinghouses or databases for these types of positions? Are individual foundation websites, NYT classifieds, etc. the best bet?
I have found the best sources of information on non-academic jobs are network connections. I have been asking all the former students in my department who took non-academic jobs to give me information, and many have. Also, poke around and contact any research places or think tanks in your specialty area. They might not be advertising, but that doesn't mean they aren't hiring.
maybe we could have another section of the blog for non-academic job postings for soc PhDs. What do you think?
I don't know how to start another section here, but given the extent of desparation all around, I think it's a great idea to start a section with info, leads, advice on getting jobs outside academia. Like others above, I'm from a top five, awards, solo publications, and no job in sight.. I don't even know where and how to begin with a non academic job
Some non-academic policy jobs are listed on ASA. Also, there is a clearinghouse for government jobs (e.g. census, etc) but I don't remember the website. There is also the Urban Institute, RAND, and California Policy Institute. You can to go to their individual websites for info.
But I will create a non-academic section on this blog.
Good luck all!
Hi Alba,
Good to see you are still around.
Can you have newer posts load at the top, instead of the bottom? (I'm not sure if this is possible) That way we wouldn't have to scroll all the way down... and it keeps the newer comments next to the "Leave your comment" box.
Just a thought.
If it is too much trouble, don't bother.
-karl
Hi karl,
good idea. let me see if i can get that figured out this afternoon. good luck!
But in the current format, you see conversations develop. If you switched, we would get responses before questions. Seems like it'd be too confusing, no?
For me, it's really not a big deal, if I'm scrolling down all the way to the bottom, or a 1/3 of the way, I just keep track of the last day I was here and go from there. (I try to keep my blog views to 2 a day, this stuff is addicting...)
I see your point. But most blogs post new stuff at the top (at least most of the political blogs I visit).
This all may be moot, however (if blogger doesn't allow for it).
-karl
re: non academic jobs. don't forget about chronicle careers. they have a wide range of non-academic jobs listed.
could we just archive old threads (on the same front page, so you could still read them) and start new ones? This is what polisci does...not to suggest we emulate them, but...
There are 8 or 9 threads. I don't think comments (which are not counted as "posts") can be listed with the most recent comments first. That wouldn't really make sense.
The actual threads/posts, though, can be arranged in chronological order. I personally would not advise against starting new threads, however. For one, I think only the administrator (Alba) can do that. If those on the job market or lurkers were able to create threads, this blog would be a mess.
I say let's not unnecessarily complicate things for Alba. This blog is fine the way it is. So we have to scroll down to the bottom to read the most recent comments. A very minor "burden."
An associate of mine has done a workshop at ASA in the past on working outside of academia. I will email her and ask if she'd be willing to pass along info.
An SC member just called my cell. It was someone I've already been in contact with, but it's still a slightly startling reminder that I have to be ready to be "on" at any point.
There was the smart advice given somewhere on the blog that you can always let it go to voice mail or answering machine, but I had at least one school not leave a message. Plus, I consider it good practice, to keep me on my toes and be ready to answer questions at the drop of a hat.
~Benny
Things that I think would be funny to say during a campus interview, given the opportunity:
1. Why yes, I am a great dancer. Want to Cha-cha?
2. I like the salary figure we've negotiated. Now let's talk about a corner office and nearby parking spot.
3. What's the university policy on office-drinking? Nudity?
4. My cat is trained on a leash and the toilet. Am I allowed to bring her to faculty meetings?
5. My therapist calls them "psychotic episodes" but I prefer to think of them as "eccentric moments".
Anyone else want to pitch in?
I think it relieves stress.
Do you do spousal hires? Yes? Are you single?
I've always felt that the current state of sociological theory represents a conceptual dialectic between ontological paradoxes and epistemological paradigms.
I see you have a policy against romantic relationships between faculty and students. Is that only for students you personally advise?
Please, call me Dr. Feelgood.
1:14 and 5:29--
you two are cracking me up! sooooooo funny! (and i mean this seriously, not sarcastically) :)
For an R1...
Give me the inside story, you don't really care whether I'm a good teacher as long as I publish, right?
How carefully does the university accounting office monitor what faculty charge to grants at this school?
Exactly how much of my teaching responsibilities can I pass on to my RAs before anyone complains?
My dissertation focuses on the complex relationship between...you know what, I am so freakin' bored with this subject. Can we talk about something else? Anything else...?
Dear SC,
I want to know, up front, who the psychos are- faculty, grad students, and other would-be stalkers.
In fact, it'd be best to know who those people are prior to my talk. That way, I can briefly answer their frantic questions and move on to those people who are not likely to show up on the local sex offender registry.
thanks,
Ballsy Job Candidate
alba or anyone else who might know:
i need to create a similar blog for another group of people. i like this format a lot. but i can't figure out how to create the various threads we have (which are fantastic). i know we all wish to remain anonymous, so contacting anyone is tricky. i wonder if someone can describe how to create specific threads??
They're just blog posts with comments. Create a blog and then click on "create new post". If you want it to look just like this one, make the title large font and leave the text of the post blank.
thanks -- that totally did the trick (and so i finally was able to accomplish the task). you're awesome.
Oh, the rash? Nothing contagious - I just get really itchy when I've had too much to drink.
So, I've heard that some of the faculty here are real a@@holes. Can you identify yourselves, please?
Why do I want this position? I'm excited about the opportunity to leave the sheer hell of the job hunt for the sheer hell of tenure pursuit.
I'm having an "eccentric moment" (that post was hilarious!). How is everyone managing through this process? I can't seem to focus on my work at all...
Oh, I'm not focusing on my work, I'm just trolling the website while waiting for my phone to ring (it's not). Fortunately I'm done with my dissertation, though have to produce enough to justify a year of postdoc
the process is very tiring. so far did 3 phone interviews. just did an on campus interview. got home and today had another request to fly another 2000 miles. of course i realize this is a good thing, but i'm tired, grumpy and a bit shell shocked from the last interview. can't imagine doing it again.
Oh 12:50, if only the rest of us had your "problems".
12:14, just out of curiosity and since I'm applying for postdocs, roughly how much do you need to produce to justify the year of postdoc?
More "fun things to say" (I'm the one who made the original post):
6. This is your car? Do you have a sentimental attachment to it, or do you just not make much money?
7. Be honest... I'm the most attractive candidate you flew out, right? It's ok to admire.
8. I prefer to be addressed as "Genius So-and-So". Somehow, I didn't feel like "Doctor" really covered it.
9. I think hands-on experience is critical in teaching undergrads. Consider the course "Human Sexuality"...
10. Allow me to explain. The restraining order is really more of a suggestion, and the judge told me that it was unsupervised probation. So, it's really not as bad as it sounds.
11. My course evaluations are really influenced by one outlying student. He was retaliating because I broke up with him the week of the final. So, if you remove him from the equation, my averages really go up.
you are hilarious! thank you for the much-needed laugh.
RE: "fun things to say"
"The only way I made it through grad school was to borrow heavily from other scholars. How flexible is this university with plagiarism?"
RE: "fun things to say"
I apologize for critiquing your work, but you have to admit, only a dumbass would make that argument.
What possessed you to want to study such a boring topic?
How would I teach intro to soc? Well, I'd have to read up on it for a bit because, to be honest, I'm not really sure yet what sociology, as a field, entails.
12:06 and 12:14, I'm not getting any work done either. Every time the phone rings I get nervous, but it's never the SC Chair I'm waiting on...
justifying a post-doc:
it varies, like everything. i have been told that 2 articles a year is a good guideline. if you have lots of things under review right now or in the final stages of revision, then the post-doc year can probably make you a much stronger candidate.
if you don't have anything that will be journal-ready within the next 6 months, then the post-doc year probably won't give your cv much of a boost. but if you have nothing right now, then it would help to at least have something under review.
if you can, think about what your cv should look like a year from now if you took a post-doc. my best advice on post-docs is to go in to one with a clear idea of what you want to accomplish and how you will do it. know who you will work with, what you will work on, and what you plan to do. if you have a plan and stick to it, a post-doc can really pay off.
I applaud those who can turn to humor to relieve job market stress. It's mentally healthy. But I just can't get passed how the paths of our lives are so far out of our control. I've done what I was supposed to do to "guarantee" a job. Where's my job? Now my fate is tied to this very, very bizarre market mechanism. Even if it successfully sorts some "good" sociologists into "good" jobs, it does a lousy job with many others. It's not fair. I know - life's not fair. I could get run over the next time I cross the street. But I reserve the right to complain then, too. (What's the right blog for that one?)
If you get run over the next time you cross the street, I believe the correct place to post would be under Interviewing tips and advice. Perhaps you could ask for strategic ways to introduce it into a conversation in order to garner sympathy from committee members.
In all seriousness though (mostly), I turn to humor only to placate the incredible anxiety I experience and literally pass the time since I can't focus on my dissertation. It's a blessing and a curse, because I generally make jokes when I'm nervous, and I'm just waiting for the time when I completely blow an interview because of it. And frequently the humor is inappropriate in terms of content and timing. It's almost uncontrollable, and very frustrating.
I constantly waver between thinking "well, I don't want to work anywhere that doesn't appreciate me and my work" and "please phone, please ring". One of the "tricks" I play on myself is to imagine my life somewhere completely different. What would happen if I packed up and moved to Alaska and led tours? Or to Nashville to work at the Grand Ole' Opry? It reminds me that I do have other options, even if it would take many tears, some guts, and a complete sense of despair before I took them. It's not always helpful (after all, wasn't I destined to be a sociologist?!?), but it lets me feel "in control" again...
at least until I see another dream job posted on the wiki.
Sorry for the rambling. ~The 1:14pm and 1:42pm jokester. aka Benny.
Just to clarify, I was sympathizing and commiserating with 12:41pm. I know tone is frequently misconstrued in blogs, so...
~Benny.
gallows humor - it keeps us going sometimes. i realized today that i would make more money if i took a job selling cosmetics at the mall than i'll probably make as an assistant professor. and it's doubtful that i'll get a job as an assistant professor!
i think it feels out of control for us because we have invested so much time in grad school. but really, this is pretty much par for the course when it comes to trying to find a job. before grad school i worked in the tech industry and i would send out 50 resumes before landing a single phone interview. then after 200 resumes, one company would call and interview me and think i was awesome.
i know it is little comfort, but this is what most people go through when they look for a job. they just get to do it without 10+ years of student loans haunting them!
Well, I for one am becoming massively depressed at the almost complete lack of interest in me. This is my 2nd time on the market. The first time was at the end of my postdoc - I had a couple of interviews but no offers. This is my second year of being a VAP, and I'm a much better candidate this time (pubs in top places, lots of teaching experience, grants), and nothing, zip, zero, zilch. And I really felt confident going into the search.
Ugh. I'm starting to feel inadequate (did I still not do *enough*?), naive (am I just clueless?), and just plain stupid (given what I know of the job market, why did I think I'd get a job this time?). Unfortunately, my sense of self-worth is really taking a beating.
And I know other searching for "normal" jobs are like this (though not nearly so much for other well-educated folks), but at least then you usually get to choose where you live and could potentially make more money.
I know it's early in the season, blah, blah, blah, but there is a definitely a chance that after 10 years and tens of thousands of dollars, I will be unemployed next year.
Anyone feel the same way?
6:44 every word hit home. That's exactly how I feel.
6:44, the details of my situation are a little different, but the sentiment is exactly the same. I'm so demoralized that I'm practically inert. After years of extremely hard work and lots of success with publishing, it's tough to fall on your face at the end of the race.
Misery loves company; this blog has lots of both!
i'm curious about the last few posts. are you all applying to all types of positions or just those at top institutions? remember it is the top positions that will be clogged up a while longer, but once one or two people take jobs, the market will open up. folks who've not heard from anyone will start to get calls. if you are applying all over, then i wonder if it is a matter of fit. are people in arcane subspecialties?
8:21, those are the right questions to ask.
I applied to a very wide range of departments, not just elite ones. Maybe my area is a hindrance...but it's not that strange an area. Advice to grad students just starting: don't risk it, go with a core area. You can switch if you want after you get your job.
I agree, arcane specialties, even if accompanied by modest publishing success, put dpts. off. Too risky. I applied to 40+ schools, and effectively nothing. Yeah, things might start opening up, but not the things I'm interested in. Advice to starting graduate students: leave! Run! Go to law school. Or get that job selling cosmetics at the store now before you're in debt have RSI.
Another piece of advice - even if you're not a quantitative researcher, being able to teach undergraduate research methods and/or stats makes you very desirable at undergraduate-only institutions. Get yourself experience teaching core classes and you'll be marketable to a wider range of programs.
The top R1 programs are looking for expertise in a specialty, but BA programs (the majority of jobs out there) need good generalists.
I have a mediocre pub record, and a phd from a top 50 program. But I have taught intro, theory, stats and methods (plus my specialty areas). I'm like a swiss-army knife of sociologists. I sent out about 15 apps this season so far, I've got two campus interviews and am on two long-shortlists (all for schools with 3-3 loads).
Even if you haven't taught these classes before, most of us are trained well enough in any of the core areas to teach them to undergrads. In cover letters, you need to frame yourself as willing and able to teach those classes. And if you don't get a job this year, spend next year getting teaching experience in a core area.
a very famous sociologist joined my dept a couple years ago and he/she was amazed at how narrowly current students conceptualized their interests. her point definitely wasn't lost on me. i knew if she was thinking that, so would others.
some of the best advice i ever got was from an undergrad advisor just before i left for grad school. wherever your interests take you, always take classes in areas like crime or theory. criminology is a big money maker, so people are always higher. theory is the core, so people are always hiring.
Try not to beat yourselves up. I was doing the same last night and was ready to give up, but then I received a call for an interview today and found out I was on a shortlist. Both schools are "second tier" schools. It seems that these teaching oriented schools are beginning their interviews. Not all is lost.
Yeah this sh*t will make you crazy. I just got a letter from a department today and I was almost in tears thinking it was a rejection letter, when all it turned out to be was a letter detailing which materials they had for my application file.
I just keep reminding myself (over and over again) that only one person I know personally has landed a job in the Fall. Even she'd tell you that was a fluke (she was a 3rd ranked candidate - but then the first two declined and she got the job in Dec). Everyone else, whether they had strong, middlin' or weak CVs, got their jobs from Feb all the way to June.
Having said all that, it does suck to be in the "haven't heard a single word" pile.
At this point I've just written this year's job market off, and my anxiety level has gone way down.
I have written off this year too - it feels good!
I was on the market last year to "test the waters." I ended up getting an interview in December, was their first choice, and was offered the job the day after Christmas.
I didn't end up taking the job, for a variety of reasons, but I wouldn't despair at this point. There's a lot of factors going into this process, and whoever said that the teaching schools are just beginning to move is absolutely right.
Additionally, I know through friends with interviews at top schools that some of the top 10 have only moved on their candidate lists/interviews within the past week.
Things are a little strange on the market this year.
Well, I am despairing as I was interested in an R1 job, not a teaching job.
Don't give up folks. The market is f****d up and seriously problematic. But for those of us who care more about having a job that's a good fit than climbing some weird ladder of sociological prestige there is a lot of time left this year. A friend of mine has been offered 6 jobs in the past two years - never before the last week of December. The calls for interviews didn't start coming until after Thanksgiving and then continued on into the spring. So hang in there.
If your grad dept was going to hold a "job market info session" (yes, this late into the market season!), what would you want them to address?
While I don't hold faculty responsible for the mess that is the job market, I do think they have some responsibilities to prepare their grad students. Some things that come to mind for me are:
1- reality checks about how dept rankings, networks, and publications factor into who gets hired where.
2- discussion of expectations, faculty's and students' (ie. why do faculty expect us all to land R1s? how can they help us land jobs at SLACs and R2s and R1s?)
3- encourage us to teach/TA a range of useful classes (intro, methods, theory).
4- perhaps hold some kind of workshop prior to market season where students can get feedback on job letters, CVs, and teaching portfolios.
and this is a different but related pipe-dream (at least for my home dept):
I wish faculty would encourage pre-MA students to carve out something manageable from their larger research projects so students can really learn the ropes of grant-writing & management, research skills, project framing, and research writing, through the apprentice model.
Again, what would you want to get out of a "job market info session"?
thanks,
PB
PB--all of the things that you list are already something that many of the top departments already do for their graduate students. One caveat, those things did not come about by themselves. It took the initiative of many graduate students from years past and present to put together solid graduate school councils, professional development workshops, and the like. These efforts also require money and of course, commitment from the faculty--both of which is much harder to obtain at some schools (but certainly not insurmountable obstacles). What I would suggest is that if you really want these things to happen, take the initiative and organize! Also, keep in mind that regardless of how much information you get or how many "first hand" knowledge faculty and fellow graduate students may/can impart to you, let's face it, this whole process of being in graduate school and on the job market is nightmarish and while information can help prepare you a little, it certainly cannot prepare you for the mental anguish and frustration that accompanies the process. Even the "stars" feel the pain. Believe me!
Let's also remember that our graduate school advisers are all R1 faculty. When I went on the market the first time, my adviser actually admitted he couldn't advise me on how best to sell myself to SLACs and teaching institutions. A network of graduate alumni may actually be a better resource for current ABDs than their faculty advisers. Instead of simply blaming our grad programs, we should all volunteer to discuss these issues with other students in our programs once we have positions.
thanks 11:17AM. i needed to hear that. i've had a couple of phone interviews and made a short-list - all appear to have now past me by. it's frustrating.
Perfectly said 5:10am! Couldn't agree more. While depts are responsible, grads *must* organize themselves. They are the best source of information and advise, especially since they're going through it NOW.
Isn't it up to incoming graduate students to get a feel for the market they're entering? For instance, I would have loved to have been a professional baseball player but I looked into it and realized that it was very unlikely I'd be able to earn a living playing baseball. So I accepted that I would have to settle for something other than my dream profession.
When graduate schools accepted us they agreed to give us training, they didn't guarantee us that we'd be professors. This was our hope, not our entitlement.
I agree that the most likely avenue for change in the sociology labor market is through student organizing. But if this happened it would be a long-term struggle that would likely bring about marginal change.
I fully understand why job seekers are frustrated, and I agree that the market works in strange ways and merit is not always the deciding factor in who is successful. But if the market does not work as we had hoped, we should've paid more attention before we signed up for grad school.
We haven't had a self-pitying post in a few days, so I thought I'd fill the gap. I look at that long, long list of schools that have scheduled 3 interviews each on average. How did they even find enough warm bodies to do all that interviewing? And how did they scare up all these people without even considering me? I count 89 schools right now on the list, and 89*3=267. I wasn't qualified for any of those slots?! Bummer. I suck. I know that many of those interview slots went to a small group of people, and I know I didn't apply to all the positions. But there's still a world of rejection going on.
At this point I'm just working my butt off on postdoc applications...
give it time. the market will open up. that 89*3 doesn't account for all of the overlap. someone in my dept has SIX interviews at R1s, all in Oct and Nov. he/she can only take one of them. there is still hope!
What happened to the list of funny things to say at interviews? I need a good laugh.
I can't post on funny things to say during an interview; my plan is instead to twitch and giggle hysterically while adjusting myself repeatedly, and then to drink myself into insensibility at dinner. Oh, and to refer to the search committee chair as either 'Mr.' or 'Mrs.' - whichever is the incorrect gender.
I plan to communicate primarily through the passage of gas in Morse Code, starting with a simple SOS and then, if they get that, progressing to derogatory remarks about the department and the mothers of everyone I meet.
I shall go to lunch with the grad students and ask, in a salacious whisper with much waggling of brows, if it is true that the department head is inordinately fond of sheep.
My plan is to distinguish myself from an otherwise boring procession of candidates
through use of a pithy catchphrase - perhaps "Ah-OOO-gah!"
I will immediately bring up to the issue of kids and partner hires - in fact, I'll just bring my young children with me and see who's on call to babysit during the interview.
thanks for the laughs! i want to bring my toddler to my interview too. i can ask them then if it's okay to use research assistants for babysitting.
I've got this vexing situation of double partner hires-- my wife and our girlfriend. Any school I work out has to figure how to accommodate all three of us. That's my priority. But so far at these interviews, the faculty members haven't been very receptive when I bring this up. The issue is that we're firmly opposed to polygamy, so we can't even make a double-spouse appeal (seems discriminatory to me). Any advice?
-Terry
I don't expect to get any interviews, but I don't plan to let that minor detail get in my way. I will show up at my top 3-4 departments and post fliers for my job talk. I will show up at the restaurant where the chair is having dinner and invite myself to join him/her. I will send them the bill for my flight and hotel.
Once I have selected my first choice department, I will extend myself a job offer and then negotiate for more research funds. Sometimes you just have to show that you are willing to take the initiative with these things.
During my campus visit, I will give everyone I meet a nickname and then use it constantly. For example, I will call the senior tenured religion scholar "God-boy" and the feminist researcher "Baby Girl".
9:57 -
I plan to bring my partner along and ask for someone to babysit her.
I will nasally inspect, on hands and knees, the floors of any offices, hallways or classrooms that I visit, as bad-smelling flooring is a deal-breaker for me.
I think the job market has addled our collective brains.
(thanks for the laughs!)
7:38 - That was HYSTERICAL. Thank you.
I can't stop laughing! Those were hilarious! Thank you!
I'm not on the market yet this year, but the job candidates from my school who say they are getting little response from employers are really worrying all of the rest of us. Are they just being alarmist and "jumping the gun" when they say things aren't going well for them this year, or should we take what they say as cause for concern?
7:50,
There's no need for concern as long as YOU have some combo of the following (note that you will need more than one of these):
- 1+ lead/solo authored publication in AJS/ASR/SF.
- an extremely famous and well-connected committee chair who is pushing you.
- a PhD from a well-ranked program (Top 5 - maybe Top 10)
If you want to see who is getting the interviews and the offers for yourself, check out the "events" pages of some of the top 25 programs and see who they're inviting out to give talks. I just did this for Cornell - then I googled the invited speakers. Let's just say that I am feeling amazingly inadequate with my 2 solo articles, 3 co-authored articles, 4 grants & fellowships, decent amount of teaching experience and a PhD from a Top 30 department. Oh, and I've heard next to nothing from any potential employers.
7:50,
I'm on the market and was beginning to freak out a bit as the wiki list of schools scheduling interviews grew longer and longer. Now, though, things have begun to heat up for me and I'm getting some calls. I think the people who posted calming "It's still early days" messages were correct. All is not lost.
7:50
Yes, I'm afraid there's a lot of cause for concern. I have some of the above, and have heard nothing too. If you're early enough in the program I would just advise you to QUIT--that's what I would have done knowing what I know now. Or specialize in something that you could use outside academia. Or work 80 hours a week to get those publications.
Oh, and one more thing--apply very, VERY widely. So that you still have schools on your list once the first round is over.
I'm not exactly sure where to post this, but I was wondering if there are any dual-sociologist couples out there? Or, do you know of any? any recommendations for increasing the odds of finding jobs at schools near each other? My partner and I are not married (we are a heterosexual couple). Will this make a difference for the possibility of partner hires?
As if there wasn't enough to worry about on the market...
To 7:40,
My spouse isn't in Sociology, but is on the market in a closely related field (close enough to have applied for some jobs in soc departments). Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions - the whole process has been very stressful for us. We only applied at places where the other could fit in somewhere, whether or not there was an open position. This meant expanding the search beyond research schools, but we placed a greater priority on living in the same city (go figure).
I know that's not much help, but, you're not alone.
I have a friend in a dual-sociologist couple. I can't give the names, but both partners are applying for academic soc jobs. They have gotten some interest from schools who understand their needs.
Re: Dual sociologist couples. There are many ways this can play out. In some ways, it's easier to have a partner in the same field, b/c a department has more control over its own lines than lines in another department (e.g. biology). Of course, that depends on the size of the department too. I think you take different strategies depending on what stage each of you is at and your credentials. I think if both of you are serious superstars or if one of you is, you can more safely mention each other either at the end of your cover letter, or ask your letter writers to mention it. If both people in the couple have roughly the same credentials, it's probably wiser to wait until you each have some interest, and then try to finagle something for the other person once you're in the door (e.g. bring it up at the interview with the dept. chair). It does mean that it's probably worth it to not test the market too early.
It's very tricky and stressful. It may be easier in the long run for both of you to go on the market at the same time, but that market run can be very, very stressful (have a couples therapist on hand, or at least some good resources for coping with the stress and negotiations). Many universities and colleges are in small towns that have difficultly attracting and/or retaining single people, and many of those schools are getting good at managing dual career couples. (I had one school tell me: "we understand that smart people marry smart people.") So, for many schools, going after a couple is riskier in the short run--they have two wildcards to negotiate, not one-- but a couple is a huge catch in the long run because couples are probably more stable faculty members. And, like all things with this market, the better your CVs and the higher ranked your PhD institutions, the better.
One last thing: this is a good time for dual career couples, demographically. A lot of departments right now have lines opening up because of current and imminent retirements, so it seems like departments are in a better position to lobby their deans to open up an extra line for a partner.
On that topic, does this apply to same-sex partners (or unmarried heterosexual partners)? I don't think most departments are blatantly homophobic, but in my experience, people tend to treat marriage differently than partnership, even when some of us don't have the option to marry.
I agree--and I also think that many schools would balk at a 'spousal hire' for someone who is not technically a spouse--for either hetero or homosexual couples. It sucks for both kinds of couples--and maybe even more for hetero couples, who 'could' marry--but they don't want to arrange a spousal hire for someone when there isn't a definite 'commitment.' I could be wrong, but that's my hunch.
On the topic of dual-sociologist couples, there are a ton I know about. And I do think schools are getting wise to the benefits of such hires, and working more toward accommodating them. But that doesn't mean it's not still very difficult--unless one, or preferably both, of you are stars. Your best bet is going to be those places that happen to be hiring two people--in your areas...
My state university has extensive domestic partner benefits. I don't know for sure, but I think my department would treat a domestic partner the same way they would treat a spouse (whether a same-sex or opposite-sex couple).
Remember, there are opposite-sex couples who chose not to marry for moral and even political reasons too.
hi friends!
so some of us have been a little discouraged by our lack of success on the early job market. so i figured i would post some reasons why being a grad student is better than being an assistant professor.
starting with: i am typing this comment while sitting on my couch in a bathrobe and slippers. my dog is sleeping on my feet. i am having a beer because i just finished the final version of the analysis for the final chapter of my dissertation.
i don't have to attend any faculty meetings, committee meetings, or planning sessions. i don't have to schedule office hours or try and teach undergrads (or for those who enjoy teaching - i get to focus all my attention on only one class a semester). i can work from 4am to noon if that's when i work best. i don't have to dress nicely.
okay, okay, i know there are a lot of good things about being a professor. like not living off $16,000 a year. if that. but as i enjoy my beer and look at the pretty leaves outside and listen to jazz while SAS runs all its various proc-whatevers...sometimes it helps to find the good things in where you're at.
-cpl
Hi CPL,
That was a nice try. Thank you. :)
cpl,
We would be good friends, I think. Congratulations on running your last chapter stats!
Can anybody clue me in on what a "preparation" consists of? Wisconsin-Lacrosse's job posting says "All department faculty are expected to teach 12 credit hours (3 preparations) each semester." Can somebody translate that? I've never been exposed to a system that deals in either credit hours or preparations.
--nemo
A "prep" is the work you do to prepare for a single course. I would guess that means the teaching load is 4/4, with two sections of one of the classes. So, you might teach Intro, Intro, Methods, and Strat. Which is better than teaching 4 different courses, and why they mention that in the ad.
Thanks, 9:52!
--nemo
More reasons why being a grad student is better:
1. No pesky "tenure clock" ticking sounds.
2. Student loans are still in deferment.
3. Student discounts at the movie theatre.
4. You can still displace responsibility to either your advisor or department.
5. There are 2 Simpsons episodes that make fun of grad students - totally worth it!!
6. Instead of explaining my research, I can just tell people that I'm still a student.
7. A publication is a HUGE deal, worthy of celebration.
8. Professors expect to pay for your meal/drinks when you dine together.
9. (to second cpl) Jeans and t's are normative.
Re: dual-career sociologists (7:40 AM). My partner and I are married and on the job market (both in soc). It's stressful, largely because we don't know how to handle certain personal questions on campus visits. Almost everyone has recommended that we do not talk about our marital status. But at times that makes it's very uncomfortable talking about yourself ('I' is almost always 'we'). Following advice, we have opted not to mention our 'spousal situation' during campus visits and instead deal with it if/when one gets an offer.
Good morning, friends! It's raining here in Carolina and we're not likely to hear much on the market this week with the holiday. Easy to get discouraged. But try the best you can to forget all about job searching for a week and enjoy the holiday.
I have been told that often times the smaller schools and tier-2 research places will list new postings around the first of the year so even if you haven't gotten any nibbles yet, hang in there.
-cpl
re: job market prep activism
I've been rallying students in my dept to demand for job market prep resources. As I stated in a post above, at my dept, if you get an interview, you get a practice job talk. But that's it for institutional resources. If your advisors are competent, then you probably get some sound advice for navigating the R1 job market (though very few of us actually land R1 jobs).
My dept provides:
-NO practice job talks without interviews
-NO teaching demos
-NO help with teaching portfolios, job letters, CVs, or other job application materials.
- and very very few "info" sessions (these sessions, when they happen, are mostly about what it's like to go on an interview at an R1 school).
-NOTHING about non-academic positions, post-docs, and SLACs.
When I posted about this before, several of you said that these items are standard for students at other departments, esp. "top departments." I think that knowing more concrete details about this claim would help the faculty at my dept understand that the job market is a structural issue and cannot be met with individualized plans of action.
If your department has standardized job market resources (panels, info sessions, practice talks/demos, etc), would you please say something here: (ie. UC-??, SLAC panel, exit seminar, practice talks). If your dept does not have standardized job market resources, please use this space to complain, if you wish.
thanks in advance,
PB
I did my grad work at a top 5. I feel like they did an excellent job of preparing us for the job market (well, at least for R1 jobs). We had professional development seminars (organized by students but funded by the department or pop center) that covered everything from what a CV looks like to negotiating after a job offer. We were expected to present at ASA, PAA, and other conferences every year. Everyone, I think, did a practice job talk early in the fall they were on the market (and those also in the pop center did one there as well). My advisor also had me practice just with her several times.
I do feel that a lot of this stuff was organized by the students, and a lot of it was also just "passed down" from student to student. There were some very generous advanced students who spent a lot of time 'socializing' the newbies. The faculty seemed to have skewed notions of what the market was like, sometimes. So having a cohesive, generous student contingent may be an important factor. This is also a relatively small program, which may also help.
I'll go first:
UC-Santa Barbara does not have any standardized job market resources.
Thus far, we've had one faculty organized information session - and that happened about 2 weeks ago! As I wrote above, that was mostly useful for navigating an interview at an R1.
If you get an interview, you get a practice job talk.
There's also a list-serv for forwarding jobs - this seems to be rather ad hoc, meaning that no one funnels jobs from normal job list sources.
But, again, there's no standard access to help for putting together all the components of a job application and nothing about non-academic work, post-docs, or SLACs. If your advisors know this kind of stuff, and you have the foresight to ask them the right questions, you might get some good advice. But if your advisor is in France for the year or hasn't been out on the market in a couple of decades, they're just not much help.
We, the grad students, are in the process of trying to change the situation at UCSB. We'll see what happens.
--PB
thanks, 11:18.
re: Dual career sociologists.
My spouse and I were on the market last year, both looking for tenure track positions. We ended up accepting spousal hire positions at a smaller R1. Everyone gave us different advice, but sometimes you have to go with your gut regarding when to disclose a spouse in the same field on the market.
One thing to keep in mind, that my adviser told me, is that it is a tremendous amount of work to get a tenure line approved by the dean's office. It can be incredibly inconsiderate to the chair to wait until you have an offer to say that you have a spouse who also needs a tenure track job in the *same* department. The reality is, that people talk, even though they can't ask you about it and eventually they find out. Sometimes it's better to roll the dice to see how bad they want you. Especially in the age of baby boomer rotating out and departments losing faculty. Sometimes lines can be leveraged against retiring faculty.
I disclosed in all of my fly-out interviews that I had a spouse who was also in need of a tenure track faculty position and in our case, for 2 out of 3 interviews, they voted to fly him out for interviews as well. The chairs of the search committees actually seemed to appreciated not having the information sprung on them later and were very receptive to pulling his file. This may not be true for other people's experiences on the market, but I felt it was very important to give the search committees time to negotiate with their deans for my spouse and in the end it worked out as we both got tenure track jobs in the same department. Just know that there are other alternatives to waiting until you get an offer, but I understand wanting to be cautious.
Good luck!
12:55. This is very interesting information! And 2 out of 3 interviews. Did you declare to the Chair during or before the campus visit?
I continue to find it really, really difficult to get any *actual* work done while obsessively click/refresh'ing for news about the job market.
Does anyone have any tips/suggestions for restoring concentration or achieving zen-mind while enduring the job market?
6:55. Each case was different. In one case I actually disclosed the info at my short interview at ASA because the interview went so well. The department chair then pulled my husband's vita and met with him also. In the other fly-out case, the department chair found out indirectly that I had a spouse on the market (my adviser informed me), so during my fly-out interview I disclosed the information and they pulled his file and voted to fly him out. The third school was a strange situation because my husband was encouraged to apply by the head of the SC and when he mentioned he had a spouse, the SCC encouraged us both to apply. In the end the SC voted to only fly me out for a job talk although they were aware of my spouse also vying for the position. So as I said these things can vary from case to case.
6:55. And I forgot to mention in the first two cases the departments were enthusiastically working towards dual hires while the third department was very noncommittal about providing us both with positions and as a result, although they were a top tier school, they were dropped from the running because we had no guarantee of job prospects for both of us.
does anyone have experience with the spouse applying to a different department
things to do to pass the time. ponder this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/1594201501/ref=dp_image_0/103-3720196-1132614?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books
Heh. Thanks for the reading suggestion, although I'm not sure that's the title to get my mind off the job market. Just reading the dust-jacket blurbs (via the Amazon link), that book is much more likely to send me into a further spiral of professional inadequacy. I think I'll try some combination of '80s dance music and a long walk outdoors in my pursuit of zen-mind. Maybe then I'll shift to getting *actual* work done (though certainly not 'infiltrating a gang' ~ jeeesh!). ;-)
re: the Amazon link
Terrific! I mean, terrifying. I mean, I guess academics can be cool after all. It's like an academic version of extreme makeover.
re: the Amazon link & extreme makeover
yes, many similarities ... including the overwhelming need for a gendered analysis & critique.
Things for which I'm thankful:
My family and I safe and warm and will be well-fed by the end of the day;
My advisor/mentor is warm, kind, supportive, brilliant, funny and immensely capable;
I am doing work which I find fascinating;
I'm healthy;
I have a wonderful and healthy son;
I'm on a path of my choosing - one which I would not trade for any other, even with these ups and downs and worries.
Funny responses during the Q&A after your job talk:
Q: So what would you describe as the biggest contributions of your research?
A: Well, for starters, I'd say that the biggest contribution is to myself. Being able to research and write about people's secret hygiene problems has really helped me achieve a breakthrough with my own hygiene problems. I mean, I will probably still need several more years of therapy, but I'm happy to say that my dissertation research taught me enough to make it to this interview smelling clean!
same question...
A: That's a great question. I'd like to start by exploring the epistemological origins of the concept of a "contribution", keeping in mind both the patriarchal legacy of the term and the myriad of ways in which it has been used as a vehicle of oppression.
-cpl
Same question...
Well, I'm furthering our understanding of how first world countries can dominate and colonize underdeveloped countries. And since first world countries are where academia is most privileged, I feel as though this ensures that both you and I will have our jobs for a very long time. Would you like to hear about my policy implications?
11.35 - That's a good one!
Okay....I had a campus interview yesterday and as I was sitting there, this board came to mind so I thought I would contribute a questions I thought about asking:
"So....I know teacher-student sexual relations are sometimes frowned upon....anything in writing here against it?....And really, how much trouble are we talking?"
"...and how about teacher-teacher? Teacher-chair? Teacher-dean? Teacher-teacher-student-dean?"
teacher-mascot?
-karl
8:24 this is 8:17......damn that was funny!!!!!!!! Way to just take it an run with it!
isn't it funny how those sexual relationship concerns always come up?! makes me think back to my early days in graduate school, and faculty were "orienting" us to the dos and don'ts of teaching. later we learned the same folks who were telling us not to encourage relationships with our students are now married to their former students...
It is funny...we have a couple of those couples in our department...
to add to the thread: what about relationships between students and teacher spouses? My wife has a thing for younger men, so I was kinda thinking...
hey, any fellow-sociologists out there who want to give me some needed relationship advice?? (yes, this does relate to job-seeking!!)
my research interests are international, and i have lived/conducted researched overseas, including for extended periods of time.
my current partner is supportive - but does not share my goals of international work at all. recently, he said something like "well, you will only take our [future] children to countries which are not on the state dept. 'do not travel' list, right?" my response of course: yeah right! i'm going everywhere and anywhere, toting those little babes on my hip in a cool baby-hip-sling!
so of course, my job search is turning slightly into a 'break from the relationship' time. add to the mix that i've had an on-again-off-again relationship with a TT faculty in a major US city, which has an abundance of colleges and universities...the big problem preventing us from dating was geographical distance.
how much is it critical to consider the 'academic lifestyle' when selecting your mate?
and, for those of us who are not 'academic couples' - how do we possibly navigate geographic locations when considering other relationships??
julia
I'd hate to turn Dr. Phil on you, Julia, BUT I think academic lifestyle is important in mate selection. Lots of problems can potentially come up as some nonacademic types don't fully understand one's devotion to arcane research questions, disregard for traditional ways of doing things, etc....I'd also caution people against some of the pitfalls of selecting a mate who is another sociologist. All of these career decisions are simplified if you aren't connected to a mate or children. That's probably not "right" but it has been my experience.
2:13, your comments make sense. in a way, i've already come to the conclusion that a non-academic mate won't work for me.
here are my biggest rationale:
1. lifestyle - freedom to take up an exciting visiting position across the world (which regular 9-5'ers can't usually swing)
2. worldview - i've found that non-academics tend to have a much less sceptical view of the world and how it functions...plus the desire to CHANGE things is critical in my femist-equal justice orienation
as a side note, my TT guy in the distant city is not sociology - but he is history/african american studies. the meeting of the minds is intellectually stimulating. can it stay sexy for the long term??
julia
oh, but i should add as well: the downfall to staying clear of mates and children can be that the big empty bed gets a little cold on those chilly nights.
i do, afterall, plan to have my life be about more than just my job and research...
SIGH!!
julia
Regarding 2:13's comment on the pitfalls of marrying another sociologist. You shouldn't let the complexities of career challenges completely dictate who you choose as a life partner. I actually married a fellow sociologist I went to grad school with. Our experience may not necessarily representative, but we've figured out how to make it work with the support of a professional networks and colleagues. After two years of a long distance relationship from different states, we both landed 2 year postdocs in the same institution, followed by tenure track faculty positions in the same R1 department. While being in the same department with your spouse can lead to some challenges, it's important to recognize that dual career relationships in the same discipline can work *and* be successful. I'm not saying it's not difficult, but I do think it was worth it to roll the dice in spite of the cautionary tales and discouraging remarks we heard.
Does anyone have any experiences with relationships with non-academics? Successful? Not?
Obviously, these are non-representative, etc. But hearing some perspectives and experiences might help those of us at a 'crossroads' and wondering what kind of life partner might be best as we look for academic jobs.
7:03, you're probably right. i was speaking from my experience with sociology partners. i think the biggest issue is staying supportive of one another -- even if the other is doing really well and you're not. it really sucks when someone gets mad at you for scoring some successes in the field and basically tells you to not do so well. jealousy brings out the nasty side of people.
True, 8:38, that jealousy can be nasty... but maybe the sociologist(s) you dated would have been poor mates no matter what their career (I mean no offense personally, this is just based on your comments).
I have made it work with my fellow sociologist partner for nearly 10 years after SWEARING before grad school that I would avoid such a relationship (never say never haha). We both have tt jobs at an R1 (though now we're pondering moving). There is definitely some "anti couple" bias in certain departments, but other departments see it as a way to attract good people (and a way to leverage their univ for additional resources to hire).
Anyway, I'm glad I didn't let my career ambitions keep me from being with the love of my life (in hindsight, that would have been very shallow and silly of me!). No matter who you fall for, you'll figure it out if you both respect each other and communicate openly. OK, now I'm turning into Dr. Phil...
Funny - those of us with PhD's actually ARE 'Dr. Phil'
Somehow relationship-savyness doesn't necessarily come along with the Doctorate in Philosophy!!
I posted this request in August (which feels like years ago now!) - to those of you that did interviews at ASA in NYC through the employment service:
1. Did you apply to any of those schools?
2. If so, did you get shortlisted or fly-outs?
I did 8 ASA ints, and was shortlisted at 2 of them so far - 25%, which is not bad. I'm just trying to determine if the ASA ints are actually helpful. What do others think?
I did 10 ASA interviews, and I got one fly-out. But I heard absolutely nothing from the rest of them.
-karl
Re: ASA interviews.
I would recommend them. So far I got two on-campus interviews and shortlisted on at least another two all stemming from the ASA employment service. So in my opinion it was well worth the time and money.
I did 6 interviews at ASA. After 3 of these, I decided not to apply for the position. (Two weren't a good fit for me. One interview raised serious red flags about a lack of collegiality in the department.)
Of the 3 that I applied for, I have been shortlisted at one and heard nothing from the others.
Don't forget that the ASA interviews are not just valuable in terms of helping you get to the shortlist. They can be very useful for determining the type of school and department where YOU would like to work.
-Rita
I had 7 ASA interviews. I applied to 3 of them. Thought I had a strong chance at all three. I have heard nothing from any of them. One has already made an offer, one is already doing interviews, and the other hasnt done anything yet.
I would say they are helpful as well, just in terms of practice interviewing and articulating your research/teaching in a succinct manner.
Thanks to all who replied to my questions about ASA job ints. From this tiny biased sample, it appears that they have some small positive effect on outcomes. If anyone has more data to contribute, please do!
This doesn't disagree with people who think the ASA interviews work but rather encouragement for people who don't do them for one reason or another. I signed up (late to be fair) and submitted requests to about 8 schools; none scheduled an interview with me. I am now in the process of negotiating a position with a research university and was on the long short list at another research university. Neither of these schools interviewed at the ASA so my lack of interviews was more about what types of schools were interviewing and the match with my specialties than my qualifications as a candidate. Still, it was an ego hit when NO ONE wanted to interview me at ASA.
I've been on the market twice and landed jobs each time without the benefit of using the ASA interviews. They obviously aren't necessary. The schools where I got offers did interview there.
I suspect these interviews are useful in that you get more practice in honing your rap. I wonder if there is a likelihood of damaging your chances at a top choice school if you interview with them at ASA before you've honed your rap.
From the perspective of someone on a SC, I see the ASA interviews as a way to weed out people more so than as a way to find the right person.
i did the ASA interviews and heard nothing from any school i interviewed with. however, i still think it was a good experience because it pushed me to be able to give a nice, cohesive summary of various aspects of my work.
one of the hardest questions we get at this stage of our careers is "so...tell me about your dissertation." in preparing for the ASA interviews, i was able to develop a 2-3 minute answer to that question as well as things like "what kind of research do you do", "what are your main interests", and "what can you bring to a department". having given my answers as those ASA interviws, i now feel much more confident giving them again during a "real" interview. that is, if i had any. which i don't.
-cpl
I've been on the job market a couple times and been offered 6 jobs (not all in one year) and no school has *ever* asked to interview through the ASA interview service. At least 3 of the places I've been offered jobs at over the past two years did conduct interviews through the ASA service.
That said, I do think, as CPL suggested, that it's a great way to practice your presentation of your work. I've also heard multiple faculty members say that it's a way for them to weed out candidates. That's largely what SCs do. Because they get so many applications a large part of the SC's job is to exclude applications.
I think the ASA interviews have some benefit but diminishing returns. Unless you're a glutton for punishment, restrict it to one day.
I agree with not giving too much of your time with it, and those who comment that it helps improve your interviewing skills.
My data:
I interviewed with 4 schools at ASA. Two flew me out, one invited me to fly out (which I declined for fit reasons), and the fourth hasn't moved yet. Take it for the N=4 that it is.
~Benny
ASA interviews: I had 3 interviews and was invited to 0 of the 3... I've had interest from other programs, and I'm pretty sure the main problem is that I don't do well in that kind of interview setting (I was right on for 2 of those 3). So my advice is: if the 30 minute meat market is not your thing, don't do it, b/c they will weed you out...
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